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Thread: Could Tutankhamen have been a Welshman?

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    Forum owner Ishtar Babilu Dingir's Avatar
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    Default Could Tutankhamen have been a Welshman?

    Zahi ... eat your heart out. And, if you're reading this, you could take a lesson from King Canute. Like the tide coming in, relentlessly, despite your best efforts, the results of King Tut's DNA show his lineage (R1b haplotype) is a million miles from any present-day Egyptian.

    This map shows the current spread of R1B DNA distribution. The highest distribution is in lands where the Celts settled. Could Tutenkhamum be a Welshman?



    Despite the refusal of the Secretary General of the Egyptian Supreme Council of Antiquities, Zahi Hawass, to release any DNA results which might indicate the racial ancestry of Pharaoh Tutankhamen, the leaked results reveal that King Tut’s DNA is a 99.6 percent match with Western European Y chromosomes.

    The DNA test results were inadvertently revealed on a Discovery Channel TV documentary filmed with Hawass’s permission — but it seems as if the Egyptian failed to spot the giveaway part of the documentary which revealed the test results.

    Hawass previously announced that he would not release the racial DNA results of Egyptian mummies — obviously because he feared the consequences of such a revelation.

    On the Discovery Channel broadcast, which can be seen on the Discovery Channel website , at approximately 1:53 into the video, the camera pans over a printout of DNA test results from King Tut.
    I don't understand some of this, but I'm sure Cogs will and anyway, I'm putting it here in case they pull the vids.

    Firstly, here is a brief explanation of the results visible in the video. It is a list of what is called Short Tandem Repeats (STRs).

    STRs are repeated DNA sequences which are “short repeat units” whose characteristics make them especially suitable for human identification.

    These STR values for 17 markers visible in the video are as follows:
    DYS 19 – 14 (? not clear)
    DYS 385a – 11
    DYS 385b – 14
    DYS 389i – 13
    DYS 389ii – 30
    DYS 390 – 24
    DYS 391 – 11
    DYS 392 – 13
    DYS 393 – 13
    DYS 437 – 14 (? not clear)
    DYS 438 – 12
    DYS 439 – 10
    DYS 448 – 19
    DYS 456 – 15
    DYS 458 – 16
    DYS 635 – 23
    YGATAH4 – 11

    What does this mean? Fortunately, a genius by the name of Whit Athey provides the key to this list. Mr Athey is a retired physicist whose working career was primarily at the Food and Drug Administration where he was chief of one of the medical device labs.

    Mr Athey received his doctorate in physics and biochemistry at Tufts University, and undergraduate (engineering) and masters (math) degrees at Auburn University. For several years during the 1980s, he also taught one course each semester in the electrical engineering department of the University of Maryland. Besides his interest in genetic genealogy, he is an amateur astronomer and has his own small observatory near his home in Brookeville, MD.

    He also runs a very valuable website called the “Haplogroup Predictor” which allows users to input STR data and generate the haplogroup which marks those STR data.

    For those who want to know what a haplogroup is, here is a “simple” definition: a haplogroup is a group of similar haplotypes that share a common ancestor with a single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) mutation.

    Still none the wiser? Damn these scientists.

    Ok, let’s try it this way: a haplotype is a combination of multiple specific locations of a gene or DNA sequence on a chromosome.

    Haplogroups are assigned letters of the alphabet, and refinements consist of additional number and letter combinations, for example R1b or R1b1. Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA haplogroups have different haplogroup designations. In essence, haplogroups give an inisight into ancestral origins dating back thousands of years.

    By entering all the STR data inadvertently shown on the Discovery video, a 99.6 percent fit with the R1b haplogroup is revealed.

    The significance is, of course, that R1b is the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in Europe reaching its highest concentrations in Ireland, Scotland, western England and the European Atlantic seaboard — in other words, European through and through.

    So much for the -centrists and others who have derided the very obvious northwestern European appearance of a large number of the pharonic mummies. It seems like March of the Titans was right after all…
    From European Times
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    Forum Elder kbs2244's Avatar
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    Default Re: Could Tutankhamen have been a Welshman?

    I love this stuff.

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    Default Re: Could Tutankhamen have been a Welshman?

    This revelation is fascinating. King Tut is definitely R1b as the provided haplotype predicting software demonstrates with a probability of 99.9% based on the STR values represented. Although I entered the data into the software it is obvious to anyone with a background in genetics that Tut is a strong R1b match just by looking at the 17 markers presented.

    My assumption: The damage that Zahi does by trying to manipulate information to meet his own ends is incalculable. Keeping everyone in the dark since data does not appear to meet a pre-established paradigm is not science. Although King Tut might be R1b, that doesn't mean he is "Caucasian" or "White" as opposed to anything else since R1b is "mainly found in Western Europe, Central Africa and Southwest Asia". For example, there is a high level of R1b in Cameroon and they certainly aren't white. See:

    1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)
    2. http://www.genebase.com/article/Y-DNA_HAPLOGROUP_R1b.
    3. http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_h ... ml#1200BCE

    Although there is a significant R1b presence in Africa, the information displayed doesn't necessarily take Tut's genetics beyond the M343 (R1b) defining subclade (see #3 above). If Zahi would relinquish his stranglehold on information, a comprehensive analysis could be performed on Tut (with more than twice as many markers reported), and we could pinpoint where in Africa or elsewhere his genetics originated with a high degree of certainty. There are other royal mummies who could also be tested and it would be a great idea to do so.

    WARNING!! Finding that Tut is R1b does NOT establish his "race" or skin colour! More than likely, his "subclade" will be found to originate from ... Egypt.

    There, there, Zahi. There's nothing and/or nobody to be afraid of except yourself!

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    Forum owner Ishtar Babilu Dingir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Could Tutankhamen have been a Welshman?

    Thanks, Cogs! I knew you'd make sense of it all!

    I'm still quite keen on my latest tweet "Could Akhenaten have been an Irishman?" ... but it was only really to wind up Zahi's devotees on Twitter. Feeling pretty mischevious today!

    On a more serious note, author Jhenah Telyndru who specialises in Celtic history has made this very interesting comment on our Facebook page, which gives us another perspective.

    Fascinating! Tut was born in 1341 BC, which is in alignment with the beginning of the Urnfield culture -- the predecessor of the Hallstatt culture, the first peoples identified as "Celts." We know the Galatians were Celts living in Anatolia beginning around the 3rd century BCE ... perhaps they were in the Middle East longer than we think?
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    Forum Elder Cognito's Avatar
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    Default Re: Could Tutankhamen have been a Welshman?

    We know the Galatians were Celts living in Anatolia beginning around the 3rd century BCE ... perhaps they were in the Middle East longer than we think?
    The Galatians originated from Gaul in historic times and their migration/invasion into Central Anatolia is well-documented by the Romans and Greeks. As is typical, they made a mess of things wherever they went.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallic_inv ... he_Balkans
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia



    Gauls in Central Turkey. Go figure!

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    Forum Resident Mike Williams's Avatar
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    Default Re: Could Tutankhamen have been a Welshman?

    The Galatian Celts would be far too late to account for Tutankhamun (1000 years too late) but Jhenah is right that there was a lot of movement around the early Bronze Age and into the Urnfield period. A lot of these journeys were for what we might now call trade although they were likely to have had a very spiritual focus. Much of what was obtained was noticeably exotic (gold, jade, jet, amber) and was only used in ceremony. So we should expect discrete visits rather than a mercantile network.

    There is nothing to suggest any link between Western Europe and Egypt in the Bronze Age, although this does not rule it out, of course. However, if we are envisaging a situation where people from (say) Wales became Egyptian rulers, we might expect there to have been a lot of evidence for interaction over a long period. None is obvious although this maybe because it is not expected and therefore nobody is looking for it. We know that some people, like the Amesbury Archer, made very long journeys so the distance would not have been insurmountable.

    It may be that Hawass is withholding the information because he finds it suspect and wants to rule out contamination (did a Welsh person do the tests – that sort of thing). He needs to be sure before he releases a bombshell like this but, once he has that certainty, he owes it to us all to disseminate it.

    It will be fascinating to see how this plays out and, if Tutankhamun does turn out to be Welsh, I for one will be very happy. He might even have been a Williams: Tutankhamun Williams does have a definite ring to it.

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    Default Re: Could Tutankhamen have been a Welshman?

    From another site discussing this subject, is anyone familiar with the work of Ralph Ellis who apparently has written about the idea that "the British and the Irish - were potentially interacting with the Egyptians long before any of us may have imagined"? Also " the legends of Scotia, who gives her name to Scotland, indicate Egyptian presence in the Isles and there have been Egyptian archaeological discoveries in Ireland." ????

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