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Thread: DNA....the old chestnut about chimpanzee....

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    Default DNA....the old chestnut about chimpanzee....

    ..... and human DNA being close enough to align with Darwinism.

    Well...I dont *know* enough about this to comment - but hoped it would be ok to throw out a question to the more learned of you out there....

    It's a dumb question - but here goes:

    Why havent any of the primates continued to evolve and get either more human or at least....more evolved? Is it just that the leap from primative man to good old homo sapien happened so long ago that the missing link was lost in time? Apart from a few jaw bones out there....

    As an interesting sideways link to the question... today this was posted online -

    Mobile DNA studied in British chimpanzees - http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2009/09 ... 252506528/

    "LEICESTER, England, Sept. 9 (UPI) -- British scientists say they are using chimpanzees to study so-called mobile DNA that is found in the genomes of humans and other primates.

    Researchers at the University of Leicester said most genes are always found in the same place in the genome. But the genes the scientists are studying have been moving around the genome throughout mammalian and primate evolution, and are still doing so.

    "This makes every human -- and every chimpanzee for that matter -- a little bit different at the DNA level, a little like a DNA fingerprint," said geneticist Richard Badge, who is leading the study."


    Thanks

    Skies

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    Default Re: DNA....the old chestnut about chimpanzee....

    Skies

    That is a very good question!

    Why aren't chimps still evolving ... or are they, and we just haven't noticed?

    Somehow, I think not.

    Be interested to hear others views on this.
    ISHTAR BABILU DINGIR: Author of Lord of the Dance, a book about life in the Indian ashram of the late Sathya Sai Baba, and The Sacred Sex Rites of Ishtar: Shamanic sexual healing and sex magic Both books available on Amazon.

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    Default Re: DNA....the old chestnut about chimpanzee....

    In case you haven't noticed Ish I love playing the Devil's advocate, but in this case you've beaten me to it!
    How do we know they are not evolving?

    Roy.
    First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

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    Default Re: DNA....the old chestnut about chimpanzee....



    You know....*some* of them are evolving.....

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    Default Re: DNA....the old chestnut about chimpanzee....

    What would you use as evidence?
    One way or the other?

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    Default Re: DNA....the old chestnut about chimpanzee....

    Quote Originally Posted by kbs2244
    What would you use as evidence?
    One way or the other?
    Well, anything ...

    There's absolutely no evidence of chimps evolving at the moment.

    Given the prevailing view that when we came out of Africa 60,000 years ago, we had much darker skins, evolution of skin colour, at least, is really not that slow.

    I guess a half man/half ape would be a start.
    ISHTAR BABILU DINGIR: Author of Lord of the Dance, a book about life in the Indian ashram of the late Sathya Sai Baba, and The Sacred Sex Rites of Ishtar: Shamanic sexual healing and sex magic Both books available on Amazon.

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    Default Re: DNA....the old chestnut about chimpanzee....

    Planet of the Apes??
    Was that progress?

    (But then, I guess, evolution dosn't have to mean progress.
    Whatever progress is.)

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    Default Re: DNA....the old chestnut about chimpanzee....

    How would you know Ish?
    Look at it this way, if a Chimp had developed an IQ of 150 would there be any external signs of it?
    Da Vinci theorised on many advanced ideas, as did Bacon, but without the technology little of their ideas could be given solid form.
    Also the theory of evolution would suggest that the ability to cope with new conditions must exist before those conditions change, and that those without that ability to cope will be at a disadvantage. From that we get this, in a static scenario there is unlikely to be much evolution beyond the best fit for those conditions.

    Roy.
    First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

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    Default Re: DNA....the old chestnut about chimpanzee....

    Quote Originally Posted by Digit
    How would you know Ish?
    Look at it this way, if a Chimp had developed an IQ of 150 would there be any external signs of it?
    Da Vinci theorised on many advanced ideas, as did Bacon, but without the technology little of their ideas could be given solid form.
    Also the theory of evolution would suggest that the ability to cope with new conditions must exist before those conditions change, and that those without that ability to cope will be at a disadvantage. From that we get this, in a static scenario there is unlikely to be much evolution beyond the best fit for those conditions.

    Roy.
    Some of that makes some sense to me, apart from your final point.

    The orangutan is in danger of becoming extinct in Borneo because of his rapidly disappearing habitat, the rainforest. So there is not a static scenario there. In fact, a crisis situation exists for that primate, and many others. So if there was going to be a good time to evolve, to cope with the new conditions, this would be it, in Borneo ... and actually many other places ...

    I've heard of virtual islands of chimps in some parts of Africa where they've become trapped into ever decreasing habitats because of deforestation.

    What about Dian Fossey's Gorillas in the Mist in Rwanda ... their numbers are also down to extinction levels?

    I know you will probably say that there hasn't been enough time for them to evolve, but given how quickly skin colour is thought to evolve, I would expect to see something.
    ISHTAR BABILU DINGIR: Author of Lord of the Dance, a book about life in the Indian ashram of the late Sathya Sai Baba, and The Sacred Sex Rites of Ishtar: Shamanic sexual healing and sex magic Both books available on Amazon.

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    Default Re: DNA....the old chestnut about chimpanzee....

    No I am not saying there has not been enough time Ish. I pointed out that the adaptions needed to survive such a change would need to be already within the gene pool.
    If those adaptions don't pre-exist the change the species will probably die out as being unable to adapt.
    What other reason would there be for extinction, discounting being his on the head by an asteroid of course?

    Roy.
    First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

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    Default Re: DNA....the old chestnut about chimpanzee....

    Dig,

    This is from the IUCN Red List of Endangered Species, which shows the percentages of varies species that are under threat of extinction.



    It's rather a lot.

    The only ones doing well are the insects! 8-)

    Are we saying then, that all of those in that chart cannot evolve to meet the crisis because they don't have those adaptions pre-existing in their gene pool?

    And if so, do we know how many animals do have it? And what evidence there is for that?

    And do know why some have it, and some don't ...?
    ISHTAR BABILU DINGIR: Author of Lord of the Dance, a book about life in the Indian ashram of the late Sathya Sai Baba, and The Sacred Sex Rites of Ishtar: Shamanic sexual healing and sex magic Both books available on Amazon.

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    Default Re: DNA....the old chestnut about chimpanzee....

    Are we saying then, that all of those in that chart cannot evolve to meet the crisis because they don't have those adaptions pre-existing in their gene pool?
    In effect, yes!
    Example. Years ago an American couple spent 11 attempting to teach a Chimp American English.
    At the end of that time they published their results concluding that Chimps were dumb 'cos it had only managed Momma and Poppa!
    They were acutely embarrassed to then be informed that the Chimp had done surprisingly well as the species lacked the necessary muscles and nerves to articulate human speech.
    For HSS to have acquired speech requires Brocca's Bump, the necessary facial nerves and muscles, plus the necessary grey matter.
    It is extremely unlikely that all these assets were acquired at the same moment in time by the same individual. Only when all of them pre-existed could language follow.
    The need to articulate language did not create the necessary facilities, they had to come first.
    With me now?

    Roy.
    First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

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    Default Re: DNA....the old chestnut about chimpanzee....

    Yes, I am with you now....

    So my next question, who does have the necessary prequisite genetic material to evolve, apart from HSS?
    ISHTAR BABILU DINGIR: Author of Lord of the Dance, a book about life in the Indian ashram of the late Sathya Sai Baba, and The Sacred Sex Rites of Ishtar: Shamanic sexual healing and sex magic Both books available on Amazon.

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    Default Re: DNA....the old chestnut about chimpanzee....

    Random genetic changes is the original suggestion. it has been questioned, modified, somewhat in recent years, but what ever the arguments we are stuck with cause and effect.
    Common sense, and Darwinism, requires small change, step at a time, then when they all come together we have lift off.
    A bit like a computer with 99 percent of its parts installed, useless!
    With small increments a species is unlikely to be able to adapt in a hurry to major disruptions, these are our mass extinctions.
    Destroying the Orang's habit will eliminate it in the wild, just as destroying this planet would finish us.
    If we face another serious ice age that destroys our technology the only long term survivors will be those with a built in tolerance to the cold, which they will pass on to their off spring, the rest of us are Kaput!
    The cold will not cause those of us who can't stand the cold to physically change.
    Nature works with what is already available to it.
    The bird's wings are an adaption of an already existing structure for example.
    As regards HSS, few people contribute anything, sorry folks!
    Iron smelting. Perhaps a one off event.
    If in doubt consider this.
    In Papua we have villagers who have never had contact with 'civilization', they are still in the stone age, does that mean their IQ is lower than ours, or does that mean they have adapted perfectly to their environment and thus found no requirement to change?
    And so with the Chimps.
    Here endeth the first lesson!!!

    Roy.
    First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

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    Default Re: DNA....the old chestnut about chimpanzee....

    I guess I am back to my original question.

    Does evolution have to mean becoming more human like?

    As was pointed out, just because chimps cannot speak English doesn’t mean they are stupid.
    Maybe they understood it just fine, but for physical reasons couldn’t speak it.

    We have seen that currently Orcas have some pretty good cognitive ability.
    Has this developed just lately?

    And many insects have a “Borg like” society.
    Is that “progress?”

    And does it have to be progress, what ever its definition, to be evolution?

    Some would say the human experience is going down hill.
    Not “progressing.”
    Is that still evolution?
    Maybe it is just adapting to an environment.
    (In many cases a “bad” environment.)
    So if evolution is defined as the ability to adapt, it must be.

    It just seems to me that everyone wants to think that humans are at the peak of the mass of living things.
    That bespeaks a huge ego.
    And, while some egos are justified, many are not.

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    Default Re: DNA....the old chestnut about chimpanzee....

    Does evolution have to mean becoming more human like?
    No. I would take it to mean becoming better adapted to your environment. An on going continuous series of changes.
    A Chimp could have an IQ of 150 and still only be a nut cracking fruit eating Primate, unless a suitable, non lethal change occurred.

    Roy.
    First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

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    Default Re: DNA....the old chestnut about chimpanzee....

    No. I would take it to mean becoming better adapted to your environment. An on going continuous series of changes.
    A Chimp could have an IQ of 150 and still only be a nut cracking fruit eating Primate, unless a suitable, non lethal change occurred.

    Roy.
    So...if we persist with the poor old chimpanzee for a while.. and I know this looks like I am committing the foul of assuming that humans are the peak of evolution, which I'm not really...there will be many more living creations out there that have evolved to adapt in much more sophisticated ways that humans...

    ....I guess effectively we get first prize for adapting and evolving the environment to us as opposed to the need to evolve ourselves...

    The comment re IQ is interesting to me. Just scratching my head and thinking about a chimp with an IQ of 150, perfectly well adapted, possibly at the peak of his or her fruit eating and nut cracking capabilities. (LOL - just re-read that....yeah scratching my head...very chimp like ).

    What was it about our evolution that caused the moment when the nuts were cracked, there was enough fruit...and we looked up to the stars?

    Was it IQ?

    Lots of different positions and views about IQ out there from claiming that it is scientific racism to embracing it as fact.

    Here's a quote to get started with:
    Intelligence is a person's capacity to (1) acquire knowledge (i.e. learn and understand), (2) apply knowledge (solve problems), and (3) engage in abstract reasoning. It is the power of one's intellect, and as such is clearly a very important aspect of one's overall well-being. Dr. C. George Boeree of Shippensburg University
    So....thats a good one to start with and fairly clear...and I suppose its the abstract reasoning bit that resonates right now.

    Is it the abstract reasoning that brings spiritual intelligence?

    Spiritual Intelligence - apparently a phrase first coined byanah Zohar, here is a quote from her:

    It is the intelligence that makes us whole, that gives us our integrity. It is the soul's intelligence, the intelligence of the deep self. It is the intelligence with which we ask fundamental questions and with which we reframe our answers.
    I guess my question originally stemmed from the assumption that we were also at some point fruit eating and nut cracking along with the best of them...somewhere in the chain and cycle of evolution, an assumption that is obviously an open question here.... but its such a fascinating question..

    The romantic in me would love to imagine that there was that *moment* when someone looked up and thought..."bugger me....what the hell is that shiny thing up there? And you know....while I'm at it...I bloody hate nuts!....hang on....when I say............I?" If you could go back and witness that moment....

    LOL...someone tell me off for being naive ...its ok

    Skies

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    Default Re: DNA....the old chestnut about chimpanzee....

    The romantic in me would love to imagine that there was that *moment* when someone looked up and thought..."bugger me....what the hell is that shiny thing up there? And you know....while I'm at it...I bloody hate nuts!....hang on....when I say............I?" If you could go back and witness that moment...
    There probably was.

    Roy.
    First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt

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    Default Re: DNA....the old chestnut about chimpanzee....

    All -

    We are in for a wide open ride, here.

    Consider these four for openers:

    Intelligence

    Cognition

    Instinct

    Memory

    The scientific and philosophical models generally have it that

    Humans are the only ones who possess all four.

    And that all other beings might have one or two, at best.

    Therefore creating a pyramid of perceived value of

    Which we are the topmost stone.

    Nevermind that we are very effectively destroying the base layers.

    And I'm leaving the spiritual out for the moment.......

    Let's take care of the first four first.

    Anyone care to offer a substantive argument as

    To why we are the only form of being

    Which demonstrates all four?

    hoka hey

    john

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    Default Re: DNA....the old chestnut about chimpanzee....

    By the way

    http://anthro.palomar.edu/earlyprimates ... imates.htm

    Pretty widespread, geographically.

    Take this with a grain or two of darwinian salt........

    hoka hey

    john

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