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Thread: The Gnostic Version of the Garden of the Eden story

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    Default The Gnostic Version of the Garden of the Eden story

    Most of you will know that Christianity sprang out of Gnosticism and more particularly the Gnostic Christians who understood the Jesus story as allegory and metaphor. For this reason, the Gnostics were persecuted to extinction by those who wanted us to believe that Jesus Christ actually lived in person, otherwise known as 'literalists' because they take all the myths and metaphorical stories contained in the ancient texts literally. So for the "Holy Roman Empire" (sic) to convince the masses that an actual god died and rose again for their sins, those who understood these stories differently had to be wiped out, in one way or another.

    The Gnostics, on the run, buried some of their texts at a place in the Egyptian desert called Nag Hammadi, and it was only in the last century that these texts were found. Among them, was The Hypostasis of the Archons (The Reality of the Rulers) and within this context, the Garden of Eden can be viewed in a very different way to the one currently presented to us in Genesis.


    So here it is:


    tamara-de-lempicka-adam-and-eve.jpg

    On account of the reality of the authorities, (inspired) by the spirit of the father of truth, the great apostle - referring to the "authorities of the darkness" - told us that "our contest is not against flesh and blood; rather, the authorities of the universe and the spirits of wickedness." I have sent this (to you) because you inquire about the reality of the authorities.

    Their chief is blind; because of his power and his ignorance and his arrogance he said, with his power, "It is I who am God; there is none apart from me." When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And this speech got up to incorruptibility; then there was a voice that came forth from incorruptibility, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" - which is, "god of the blind."

    His thoughts became blind. And, having expelled his power - that is, the blasphemy he had spoken - he pursued it down to chaos and the abyss, his mother, at the instigation of Pistis Sophia. And she established each of his offspring in conformity with its power - after the pattern of the realms that are above, for by starting from the invisible world the visible world was invented.

    As incorruptibility looked down into the region of the waters, her image appeared in the waters; and the authorities of the darkness became enamored of her. But they could not lay hold of that image, which had appeared to them in the waters, because of their weakness - since beings that merely possess a soul cannot lay hold of those that possess a spirit - for they were from below, while it was from above. This is the reason why "incorruptibility looked down into the region (etc.)": so that, by the father's will, she might bring the entirety into union with the light.

    The rulers laid plans and said, "Come, let us create a man that will be soil from the earth." They modeled their creature as one wholly of the earth. Now the rulers [...] body [...] they have [...] female [...] is [...] with the face of a beast. They had taken some soil from the earth and modeled their man after their body and after the image of God that had appeared to them in the waters. They said, "Come, let us lay hold of it by means of the form that we have modeled, so that it may see its male counterpart [...], and we may seize it with the form that we have modeled" - not understanding the force of God, because of their powerlessness. And he breathed into his face; and the man came to have a soul (and remained) upon the ground many days. But they could not make him arise because of their powerlessness. Like storm winds they persisted (in blowing), that they might try to capture that image, which had appeared to them in the waters. And they did not know the identity of its power.

    Now all these things came to pass by the will of the father of the entirety. Afterwards, the spirit saw the soul-endowed man upon the ground. And the spirit came forth from the Adamantine Land; it descended and came to dwell within him, and that man became a living soul. It called his name Adam, since he was found moving upon the ground. A voice came forth from incorruptibility for the assistance of Adam; and the rulers gathered together all the animals of the earth and all the birds of heaven and brought them in to Adam to see what Adam would call them, that he might give a name to each of the birds and all the beasts.

    They took Adam and put him the garden, that he might cultivate it and keep watch over it. And the rulers issued a command to him, saying, "From every tree in the garden shall you eat; yet from the tree of recognizing good and evil do not eat, nor touch it; for the day you eat from it, with death you are going to die."

    They [...] this. They do not understand what they have said to him; rather, by the father's will, they said this in such a way that he might (in fact) eat, and that Adam might <not> regard them as would a man of an exclusively material nature.

    The rulers took counsel with one another and said, "Come, let us cause a deep sleep to fall upon Adam." And he slept. - Now the deep sleep that they "caused to fall upon him, and he slept" is Ignorance. - They opened his side like a living woman. And they built up his side with some flesh in place of her, and Adam came to be endowed only with soul.

    And the spirit-endowed woman came to him and spoke with him, saying, "Arise, Adam." And when he saw her, he said, "It is you who have given me life; you will be called 'mother of the living'. - For it is she who is my mother. It is she who is the physician, and the woman, and she who has given birth."

    Then the authorities came up to their Adam. And when they saw his female counterpart speaking with him, they became agitated with great agitation; and they became enamored of her. They said to one another, "Come, let us sow our seed in her," and they pursued her. And she laughed at them for their witlessness and their blindness; and in their clutches she became a tree, and left before them her shadowy reflection resembling herself; and they defiled it foully. - And they defiled the stamp of her voice, so that by the form they had modeled, together with their (own) image, they made themselves liable to condemnation.

    Then the female spiritual principle came in the snake, the instructor; and it taught them, saying, "What did he say to you? Was it, 'From every tree in the garden shall you eat; yet - from the tree of recognizing good and evil do not eat'?"

    The carnal woman said, "Not only did he say 'Do not eat', but even 'Do not touch it; for the day you eat from it, with death you are going to die.'"

    And the snake, the instructor, said, "With death you shall not die; for it was out of jealousy that he said this to you. Rather your eyes shall open and you shall come to be like gods, recognizing evil and good." And the female instructing principle was taken away from the snake, and she left it behind, merely a thing of the earth.

    And the carnal woman took from the tree and ate; and she gave to her husband as well as herself; and these beings that possessed only a soul, ate. And their imperfection became apparent in their lack of knowledge; and they recognized that they were naked of the spiritual element, and took fig leaves and bound them upon their loins.

    Then the chief ruler came; and he said, "Adam! Where are you?" - for he did not understand what had happened. And Adam said, "I heard your voice and was afraid because I was naked; and I hid."

    The ruler said, "Why did you hide, unless it is because you have eaten from the tree from which alone I commanded you not to eat? And you have eaten!"

    Adam said, "The woman that you gave me, she gave to me and I ate." And the arrogant ruler cursed the woman.

    The woman said, "It was the snake that led me astray and I ate." They turned to the snake and cursed its shadowy reflection, [...] powerless, not comprehending that it was a form they themselves had modeled. From that day, the snake came to be under the curse of the authorities; until the all-powerful man was to come, that curse fell upon the snake.

    They turned to their Adam and took him and expelled him from the garden along with his wife; for they have no blessing, since they too are beneath the curse. Moreover, they threw mankind into great distraction and into a life of toil, so that their mankind might be occupied by worldly affairs, and might not have the opportunity of being devoted to the holy spirit.

    Now afterwards, she bore Cain, their son; and Cain cultivated the land. Thereupon he knew his wife; again becoming pregnant, she bore Abel; and Abel was a herdsman of sheep. Now Cain brought in from the crops of his field, but Abel brought in an offering (from) among his lambs. God looked upon the votive offerings of Abel; but he did not accept the votive offerings of Cain. And carnal Cain pursued Abel, his brother.

    And God said to Cain, "Where is Abel, your brother?"

    He answered saying, "Am I, then, my brother's keeper?"

    God said to Cain, "Listen! The voice of your brother's blood is crying up to me! You have sinned with your mouth. It will return to you: anyone who kills Cain will let loose seven vengeances, and you will exist groaning and trembling upon the earth."

    And Adam knew his female counterpart Eve, and she became pregnant, and bore Seth to Adam. And she said, "I have borne another man through God, in place of Abel." Again Eve became pregnant, and she bore Norea. And she said, "He has begotten on me a virgin as an assistance for many generations of mankind." She is the virgin whom the forces did not defile.

    Then mankind began to multiply and improve. The rulers took counsel with one another and said, "Come, let us cause a deluge with our hands and obliterate all flesh, from man to beast." But when the ruler of the forces came to know of their decision, he said to Noah, "Make yourself an ark from some wood that does not rot and hide in it - you and your children and the beasts and the birds of heaven from small to large - and set it upon Mount Sir."

    Then Orea came to him, wanting to board the ark. And when he would not let her, she blew upon the ark and caused it to be consumed by fire. Again he made the ark, for a second time.

    The rulers went to meet her, intending to lead her astray. Their supreme chief said to her, "Your mother Eve came to us." But Norea turned to them and said to them, "It is you who are the rulers of the darkness; you are accursed. And you did not know my mother; instead it was your female counterpart that you knew. For I am not your descendant; rather it is from the world above that I am come."

    The arrogant ruler turned, with all his might, and his countenance came to be like (a) black [...]; he said to her presumptuously, "You must render service to us, as did also your mother Eve; for I have been given [...]." But Norea turned, with the might of [...]; and in a loud voice, she cried out up to the holy one, the God of the entirety, "Rescue me from the rulers of unrighteousness and save me from their clutches - forthwith!"

    The <great> angel came down from the heavens and said to her, "Why are you crying up to God? Why do you act so boldly towards the holy spirit?"

    Norea said, "Who are you?" The rulers of unrighteousness had withdrawn from her.

    He said, "It is I who am Eleleth, sagacity, the great angel who stands in the presence of the holy spirit. I have been sent to speak with you and save you from the grasp of the lawless. And I shall teach you about your root."

    (Norea apparently now speaking) Now as for that angel, I cannot speak of his power: his appearance is like fine gold and his raiment is like snow. No, truly, my mouth cannot bear to speak of his power and the appearance of his face!

    Eleleth, the great angel, spoke to me. "It is I," he said, "who am understanding. I am one of the four light-givers, who stand in the presence of the great invisible spirit. Do you think these rulers have any power over you? None of them can prevail against the root of truth; for on its account he appeared in the final ages; and these authorities will be restrained. And these authorities cannot defile you and that generation; for your abode is in incorruptibility, where the virgin spirit dwells, who is superior to the authorities of chaos and to their universe."

    But I said, "Sir, teach me about the faculty of these authorities - how did they come into being, and by what kind of genesis, and of what material, and who created them and their force?"

    And the great angel Eleleth, understanding, spoke to me: "Within limitless realms dwells incorruptibility. Sophia, who is called Pistis, wanted to create something, alone without her consort; and her product was a celestial thing. A veil exists between the world above and the realms that are below; and shadow came into being beneath the veil; and that shadow became matter; and that shadow was projected apart. And what she had created became a product in the matter, like an aborted fetus. And it assumed a plastic form molded out of shadow, and became an arrogant beast resembling a lion. It was androgynous, as I have already said, because it was from matter that it derived.

    Opening his eyes, he saw a vast quantity of matter without limit; and he became arrogant, saying, "It is I who am God, and there is none other apart from me". When he said this, he sinned against the entirety. And a voice came forth from above the realm of absolute power, saying, "You are mistaken, Samael" - which is, 'god of the blind'.

    And he said, "If any other thing exists before me, let it become visible to me!" And immediately Sophia stretched forth her finger and introduced light into matter; and she pursued it down to the region of chaos. And she returned up to her light; once again darkness [...] matter.

    This ruler, by being androgynous, made himself a vast realm, an extent without limit. And he contemplated creating offspring for himself, and created for himself seven offspring, androgynous just like their parent. And he said to his offspring, "It is I who am god of the entirety."

    And Zoe (Life), the daughter of Pistis Sophia, cried out and said to him, "You are mistaken, Sakla!" - for which the alternative name is Yaltabaoth. She breathed into his face, and her breath became a fiery angel for her; and that angel bound Yaldabaoth and cast him down into Tartaros below the abyss.

    Now when his offspring Sabaoth saw the force of that angel, he repented and condemned his father and his mother, matter. He loathed her, but he sang songs of praise up to Sophia and her daughter Zoe. And Sophia and Zoe caught him up and gave him charge of the seventh heaven, below the veil between above and below. And he is called 'God of the forces, Sabaoth', since he is up above the forces of chaos, for Sophia established him.

    Now when these (events) had come to pass, he made himself a huge four-faced chariot of cherubim, and infinitely many angels to act as ministers, and also harps and lyres. And Sophia took her daughter Zoe and had her sit upon his right to teach him about the things that exist in the eighth (heaven); and the angel of wrath she placed upon his left. Since that day, his right has been called 'life'; and the left has come to represent the unrighteousness of the realm of absolute power above. It was before your time that they came into being.

    Now when Yaldabaoth saw him (Sabaoth) in this great splendor and at this height, he envied him; and the envy became an androgynous product, and this was the origin of envy. And envy engendered death; and death engendered his offspring and gave each of them charge of its heaven; and all the heavens of chaos became full of their multitudes. But it was by the will of the father of the entirety that they all came into being - after the pattern of all the things above - so that the sum of chaos might be attained.

    "There, I have taught you about the pattern of the rulers; and the matter in which it was expressed; and their parent; and their universe."

    But I said, "Sir, am I also from their matter?"

    "You, together with your offspring, are from the primeval father; from above, out of the imperishable light, their souls are come. Thus the authorities cannot approach them, because of the spirit of truth present within them; and all who have become acquainted with this way exist deathless in the midst of dying mankind. Still, that sown element will not become known now. Instead, after three generations it will come to be known, and it has freed them from the bondage of the authorities' error."

    Then I said, "Sir, how much longer?"

    He said to me, "Until the moment when the true man, within a modeled form, reveals the existence of the spirit of truth, which the father has sent.

    Then he will teach them about everything, and he will anoint them with the unction of life eternal, given him from the undominated generation.

    Then they will be freed of blind thought, and they will trample underfoot death, which is of the authorities, and they will ascend into the limitless light where this sown element belongs.

    Then the authorities will relinquish their ages, and their angels will weep over their destruction, and their demons will lament their death.

    Then all the children of the light will be truly acquainted with the truth and their root, and the father of the entirety and the holy spirit. They will all say with a single voice, 'The father's truth is just, and the son presides over the entirety", and from everyone unto the ages of ages, "Holy - holy - holy! Amen!'"



    From here: http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/hypostas.html

    If anyone fancies discussing the deeper meanings of this text, I'd love to. I think it's probably the earliest metaphorical teaching for the Kabbalah.


    treeoflifekabbalah.jpg
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    I've been studying the Kabbalah for the last few years, and I'm still very much a beginner. But in reading the Hypostasis of the Archons, through the story I could make out the bare bones of early Kabbalistic teachings. So I did a Google around and found that there are several Gnostic sites with teachings also based on that conclusion, that early Gnostic Christian texts are teaching the Christian version of the Kabbalah in allegory.

    This shouldn't come as any surprise to me because the Gnostic Christians were, essentially, Jews who were already steeped in the teachings of the Kabbalah. Plus I've always understood that most of the Gnostics regarded the Jesus story as allegorical rather than literal. This is why, in my opinion, they were persecuted into extinction by those who wanted us to believe that Jesus Christ actually lived in person, otherwise known as 'literalists' because they take metaphorical stories contained in the ancient texts literally. So for the "Holy Roman Empire" to convince the masses that an actual god died and rose again for their sins, those who understood these stories differently had to be wiped out, in one way or another.

    As I said in the opening post, the Gnostics, on the run, had to bury some of their texts at a place in the Egyptian desert called Nag Hammadi, and it was only in the last century that these texts were found. Among them, was The Hypostasis of the Archons.

    It's quite ironic that the HofA, which in my view was intended to be a metaphorical teaching story, with fictional characters, has produced so much tragic misunderstanding... a tragic misunderstanding which is based on reading mythology literally, as history, as we've been taught to do for the last 1600 years, since the rule of the Roman Emperor Constantine.

    I always say that if the purpose of mythology was to record history, it would contain dates. But there is not a single one.

    A comparison might be if suddenly, someone decided to impose a religion on us, by force, in which Harry Potter was actually a Messiah sent by God, with the Death Eaters in the role of the Archons. It's frustrating to mythologists to see this force of ignorance in action, because so many have died through literalist religions fighting other literalist religions, each one insisisting that they are right and have "God on their side". On the other hand, those who understand that the teachings are metaphorical accounts which had the aim of supporting a more subjective inner spiritual journey of the individual are more inclined to accept the diversity of others' experiences.

    That is probably why so many different and differing tales about the life of Jesus were found at Nag Hammadi, and also why that the only four which were accepted by Bishop Iranaeus for the canon ~ Matthew, Mark, Luke and John ~ don't even agree in all details. I often wonder if Irananeus selected those four because they largely agree, but only largely. As eye witness accounts which are meant to confirm one another, they would never stand up in a court of law. They were never intended to, in my opinion, because they are allegorical stories from the earliest Christians intended to support the discovery of the Christ Consciousness which is within each and every individual. And when you examine the trove of non-canonical gospels from Nag Hammadi, this becomes even clearer.

    On the Kabbalah, the Christ Consciousness is represented by the realm of Tipareth. The initiate works his or her way up the paths of the Kabbalah, going ever upwards towards the realm of Kether, which is the Ultimate Godhead. On the way to the realm of Kether, the initiate has to go through the realm of Tipareth, which is also known as the Son or the Christ Consciousness. You cannot bypass it and go another way to Kether, the Father. Not according to this teaching, anyway. So I think that's what was meant by having Jesus say: "No-one comes to the Father except through me."

    There's a lot to this ... and I've barely scratched the surface here of why I think the HofA is an allegorical teaching for the Kabbalah, but I'm working up a post on it which I'll do later.
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    I believe that gnosticism, hermeticism, and whatnot are ultimately based upon a sort of emanationist belief, i.e. that the Good (God, the Monad, the One) emanates lesser and lesser varieties of divinity till the state of physicality is reached. Humans are sort of spirit beings trapped in the physical world with little or no knowledge of the Good, hence the need for messengers to teach about the hidden realm that they come from. This is sort of how I understand the gnostic's view of Jesus, that he was more of a spiritual entity rather than as a real flesh-and-blood man who lived and died. The twist, provided by orthodox Christianity, is that the metaphorical nature of Jesus was later passed off as a real, historical personage with an appropriate background (that the historical record, outside of Church-approved sources, can't quite seem to prove convincingly).

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    Yes, I agree, Zeno, going back to the ancient Vedas, this is the case ~ it is emanationist. But I wouldn't use the word 'belief'. The rishis who composed the Vedas said that they got their information from the spirits. Rishi is the word used then in India for shaman. So this is an experiental understanding, which goes further than belief, although a belief system is based upon it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ishtar View Post
    On the Kabbalah, the Christ Consciousness is represented by the realm of Tipareth. The initiate works his or her way up the paths of the Kabbalah, going ever upwards towards the realm of Kether, which is the Ultimate Godhead. On the way to the realm of Kether, the initiate has to go through the realm of Tipareth, which is also known as the Son or the Christ Consciousness. You cannot bypass it and go another way to Kether, the Father. Not according to this teaching, anyway. So I think that's what was meant by having Jesus say: "No-one comes to the Father except through me."
    Noprophet on Project Avalon has just kindly messaged me with the following

    Nailed it!

    2 Peter 1 is the exact description of the sphere of tiphareth as gained through the unity of the paths through hod and netzach.
    Perhaps 'nailed it' is an unfortunate use of the term in the context of Jesus ~ but anyway, I looked up 2 Peter 1 in the King James version and here it is:

    2 Peter 1

    1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
    2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
    3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
    4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
    5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
    6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
    7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
    8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
    10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
    11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
    12Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
    13Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
    14Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
    15Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
    16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
    17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
    18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
    19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
    20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
    21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


    Hmmmm, going to have to think about that.... but interesting, if not utterly synchronistic, that the last two verses above reflect what I was just saying to Zeno about the experiential source of the sacred texts.

    20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
    21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ishtar View Post
    Yes, I agree, Zeno, going back to the ancient Vedas, this is the case ~ it is emanationist. But I wouldn't use the word 'belief'. The rishis who composed the Vedas said that they got their information from the spirits. Rishi is the word used then in India for shaman. So this is an experiental understanding, which goes further than belief, although a belief system is based upon it.
    Outside of the Bhagavad-Gita and portions of the Upanishads I'm not really familiar with the Vedic beliefs. I can imagine that there's some commonality to the more mystical beliefs of the Greeks, given the shared Indo-European heritage and all, but I think that the ultimate root of emanationist belief in the west lies in Egypt. I'm thinking of the Corpus Hermetica here, which is probably best thought of as a hybrid of Greek and Egyptian beliefs as a sort of mystical philosophy. There, God and the Good are identical and lesser divinities, identified with the planetary deities, the sun, and the moon, etc., are his helpers. It's been a bit of time since I looked over the Hermatica, but from what I recall it reminds me a bit of the theories of Plotinus. In western mysticism the practitioner didn't so much commune with spirits but with the inner divinity, i.e. consider how Socrates spoke of his own daimon (analogous to a guardian angel) in addition to speaking of being inspired by Apollo.
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    My favorite subject!


    I'll give you some rough translation of symbols for 2 Peter 1


    Jesus Christ : Sphere of Tiphareth
    Glory : Sphere of Hod
    Power : Sphere of Netzach


    (You might recall "for thine is the kingdom(Malkuth), and the power(netzach), and the glory(hod)"--straight kabalah)


    For those not familiar (you'll have to invoke these using your imagination):


    Netzach - function of the emotional body
    Imagine being inspired - you are in the sphere of Netzach
    Imagine being angered - sphere of Netzach
    Imagine beauty - Netzach
    Venus


    Hod - function of the intellectual body
    Imagine solving a math problem - you are in the sphere of Hod
    Imagine budgeting your money - sphere of Hod
    Imagine constructing a scenario given several facts - Hod
    Mercury


    Tiphareth
    Imagine every last thing being in perfect harmony
    Imagine this harmony is immutable.
    Anytime an action is taken it has already been anticipated and answered.
    The experience is left to be quantified between Hod and Netzach.
    the S(u)n




    I'm not, nor have I ever been, a big bible person. I just happen to be a kabalist who continually realizes it was written in that language every time I happen to glance through it.


    I do not mean to offend anyone, however I'm going to make notes and possibly change a few things. So...


    1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
    Introduction: Simon Peter, attained grade (degree to masons) of Tiphareth (e.g. can move in and out of Sphere of Tiphareth at will--full comprehension) to those who have also attained the same grade through correct understanding of the sphere:


    2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
    A peaceful state of mind and more knowledge come to you through the Sphere of Tiphareth and its inherit perspective produced on "existence" (God).


    3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
    According to our inherit knowledge through Netzach (our innate reactions to things) via our experiences, by the conception of these experiences through Hod, and tempering ourselves with virtue, e.g. not using those intellectual conceptions about "Existence" to condemn:


    4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
    Though we are tempted to condemn by the promise of bringing order to reality; and in this experienec being God (which we are, in essence, hence the inherit desire to fullfill our conception of the role.) (e.g. the temptation of Hod)
    Having escaped fear.


    5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
    6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
    7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
    This is a very complex formula... I'm not going to go to far into it since it would require a lot more groundwork... If you know your tree it's something like: Chesed>Hod>Geburah>Chesed>Hod>Netzach>Chesed (This is probably not exact but chesed is reoccuring to temper judgement; if you were a really good meditational kabalist--I am not--this would be your bread and butter.)

    8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    This invokes the sphere of Tiphareth.


    9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
    If people can't think in this particular way they won't get it. (Genrally via investment in past and future)


    10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
    If you do get it this is how it's done.


    11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
    With this formula the grade of Tiphareth will be obtained.


    12Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
    You know this (the other kabalists he was writing to) but I'll keep reminding you so the information will not degrade.


    13Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
    I think this was kind of a joke honestly. He seems to be saying 'Pretty sure I'll keep bugging everyone with this exact function as long as I'm writing because it's what I like to right about.' (perfectly acceptible reaosning to a kabalist--what is, is, afterall :P)


    14Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
    I'm fair sure he is referring to being in the various spheres as being the 'tabernacle'. He's writing this (convcieving it) via Hod hence he's saying 'I'm going to leave this sephirot when I finish writing just as I left the sphere of Tiphareth to write it.'

    15Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
    Also I want you [kabalists] to have this information even when I'm not here to reiterate it.


    16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
    For we didn't make it up, try it and see what you get. You'll see what we mean. (sorry literalists)


    17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
    For Hod and Netzach are inherently ours, not devised. And in this method of unifying them we get this really awesome, pleasurable, result.


    18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
    Tiphareth (look where it is on the tree) represents the Holy Mount. Hence when we were in the 'Holy Mount' we could finally prooperly interpret 'existence' outside a duality.


    19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
    If you should think this still isn't proof then consider:


    20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
    This can be experienced, you don't have to take our word for it.


    21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
    Because 'existance' always is. You don't need to rely on old interpretations. You can just use this system to check.


    This is actually an amazing piece of work. To think when I ran across the passage originally it was being used devisively to tell someone 'no lord may exist before christ.' This isn't "wrong" but it's not a rule of exclusion--it's all about complete and utter incorporation. Matching the micro to the macro. the perception to what is being percieved.

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    Default Spiralling up the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil

    It's great to see you on here, noprophet.... this is a really valuable contribution towards our understanding of the Kabbalah, on here, and I hope you continue to post your thoughts about it. I'm just putting the Kabbalah here again so that those new to the subject will be able to more easily follow what we're talking about.

    The Kabbalist journeys on pathways up the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil until he or she reaches Kether or the Ultimate Godhead at the top. The pathways are linked by Spheres. These are the apples that Eve was told not to pick. These Spheres are actually realms in which the journeyer can learn more about themselves in their aim of self-realisation or God-realisation, which is the same thing. In 2 Peter 1, we're discussing three different Spheres or realms that are linked by pathways at the bottom end of the Kabbalah, where the journeyer begins. They are Hod (intellect) Netzach (emotion) and Tipareth (The Sun or Christ Consciousness).

    treeoflifekabbalah.jpg


    Tipareth is the orange sphere in the centre of the tree, and Hod and Netzach are the darker orange and green (respectively) spheres just below and either side of Tipareth. The pathways are marked in yellow. The initiate begins in Malkuth (the multi-coloured Sphere at the bottom) which is the material world into which he or she has "Fallen" and climbs up the yellow pathways from there. Each of the pathways, as you can see, has a Tarot card associated with it.

    As I understand it, and noprophet will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong, one cannot journey straight up the middle of the Tree. Our progress up the tree is more like a zig-zag, which is a 2D symbol for a spiral (or the serpent). One has to spiral like a serpent up the tree because everything in nature progresses in spiral fashion and in this way, we can take in all the side spheres on either side. This could be compared to uniting both sides of our nature, or bringing together the right side and left side of the brain (I think!).










    If something doesn't make sense, or you'd like to know more, please don't be embarrassed to ask because we're all beginners here. And don't be afraid to taste these apples because, I promise you, they're nice and juicy and wholesome!



    eve_apple.jpg
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    As I understand it, and noprophet will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong, one cannot journey straight up the middle of the Tree.
    You absolutely can, in Buddhism this is called the path of the Tao e.g. Tao Buddhism. In kabalah we call it the path of the arrow.

    The path of the lightning bolt is very important for deconstructing/constructing natural things, However freewill allows us to move outside this very specific pattern. We can force things here and there because--well because we're god, there's not a better way to put it.

    The center path is the equivalent of Nirvana in terms of annihilation. You simply destroy the duality. (Ego)(Hod/Netzach/Malkuth(FIELD construct) (expresses through Yesod)

    In western terms we also destroy the ego but in a different way. We make the ego admit unity and it re-merges (dies). Easterners starve it until it dies (re-merges). The ego is the beast.

    You'll often hear the terms, in high magics, left-hand and right-hand path. This is a referance to how you move back towards God (singularity). Your chosen path can be intellect and at its first principle you will find eternal pressure or "constant energy supply". (energy cannot be created nor destroyed principle) In modern literalist terms it is what they innately call God though rarely venture to find out why they call it that.

    If I was to approach this same aspect through an emotional path I would call it unconditional love. Another term basically meaning in emotional terms "constant energy supply". Now, while these two perspective (intellect/emotion) are inseparable in us, we tend to focus more to one than the other. this determines what "path" we are on.

    The Egyptians understood this very well, hence the eye of horus and the eye of isis (inverse of each other). As you may have guessed everyone everywhere is already on one of these two paths all the time. They simply do not bother to define it.

    e.g.
    Is that Hot? *touches it* That's Hot! (Netzach path)
    Is that Hot? *Looks to see if it is on* It's on, therefore hot. (Hod path)

    One of these you know because existence tells you, one you know because your familiar with the constructs of existence.
    Both have their drawbacks. Why it's good to check both paths--though you can't always do this. For instance I can't feel math nor can I describe color. Some things can only be dealt with in their own sphere.

    The third path, however, is a bit different, requires a lot of faith and is more or less used via closing the other two down in Buddhism

    You basically access it like the Buddhists say; everything is hollow, everything is illusion, turn inward, sit and forget, etc. This pops you right into the sphere of tiphareth and is commonly described as "the now".

    For lack of a better example; Tiphareth in the eastern sense is whats left when you stop focusing on all the duality and therefore unblock the channel of unconditional love, which you then begin resonating with and eventually harmonize and merge. Tiphareth in the western sense is the realization that all the concepts are working in perfect harmony at any given time (be these emotional or intellectual--paths) thereby removing the need to argue (vow-of-silence is a hack for this). These are two paths used to realize the same principle and if understood correctly, will lead to a very good understanding of the separation of eastern and western culture and also illustrate why we interact with our environments differently.

    There are many paths to the center of a sphere but there is still only one center. (You go deep enough and the paths begin to merge.)

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    Many thanks, noprophet.

    My only question would be why one would choose to go straight up the middle rather than take in all the sights along the way?

    I'm following the system of Dolores Ashcroft-Nowicki currently. She was in the lineage of Dion Fortune, who used to live around here and so we're very into her methods locally. Dion Fortune, as I'm sure you know, wrote The Mystical Kabbalah, in which she goes into a lot of helpful detail about each of the spheres, but she doesn't actually offer pathworkings, as Dolores Ashcroft-Nowicki does in her book, The Shining Paths. So that's what I'm following.

    I'm actually finding Kabbalistic pathworking more difficult than shamanic journeying. I tend to get buffeted around on the paths of the Kabbalah, sometimes, as if there's a force pushing me back or sideways. I can sometimes end up in some very strange dead ends too! I find shamanic journeying much smoother and simpler. However, I will continue through to the end because I'm curious about how this system works and what it achieves.

    On the subject of Tipareth and Christ Consciousness... there is a meditation that takes me straight into it. It's called the Ecstasy of the Heart meditation. In this place, there is only a very pure love. It is like a room that is so filled with love that there's no space for anything else in there ~ like ego trips or fear or guilt or even pain. There just isn't the room for anything other than love which emanates out from the heart like a harmonic or frequency, and so raises the vibration of everything around one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ishtar View Post
    Many thanks, noprophet.

    My only question would be why one would choose to go straight up the middle rather than take in all the sights along the way?
    We are of a similar nature, therefore I feel the same way. :P
    However one who sees nothing but suffrage will surely take the quickest way out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ishtar View Post
    I'm following the system of Dolores Ashcroft-Nowicki currently. She was in the lineage of Dion Fortune, who used to live around here and so we're very into her methods locally. Dion Fortune, as I'm sure you know, wrote The Mystical Kabbalah, in which she goes into a lot of helpful detail about each of the spheres, but she doesn't actually offer pathworkings, as Dolores Ashcroft-Nowicki does in her book, The Shining Paths. So that's what I'm following.
    I consider Dion Fortune my personal mentor and shake my fists that the lords of karma and time should separate us as so.

    I'll also have to check out Dolores as pathworkings are my weakest area. So much in fact that I let Netzach handle all my paths. I just point to the sphere I want in Hod and let Netzach do it's thing. This is no doubt my mentors fault. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Ishtar View Post
    I'm actually finding Kabbalistic pathworking more difficult than shamanic journeying. I tend to get buffeted around on the paths of the Kabbalah, sometimes, as if there's a force pushing me back or sideways. I can sometimes end up in some very strange dead ends too! I find shamanic journeying much smoother and simpler. However, I will continue through to the end because I'm curious about how this system works and what it achieves.
    While I'm not sure I'm being congruent here, I think the shamanistic path is much more netzach centric. You, already being quite adept in netzach (navigation through feel) are now introducing your hod complexes to working in these areas. I know these are abstract experiences,but I would appreciate you maybe walking through one a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ishtar View Post
    On the subject of Tipareth and Christ Consciousness... there is a meditation that takes me straight into it. It's called the Ecstasy of the Heart meditation. In this place, there is only a very pure love. It is like a room that is so filled with love that there's no space for anything else in there ~ like ego trips or fear or guilt or even pain. There just isn't the room for anything other than love which emanates out from the heart like a harmonic or frequency, and so raises the vibration of everything around one.
    I'm familiar with this, I can induce it now and then when my zodiac isn't being fussy by focusing on tiphareth'ic concpets. I think what may help [with your kabalistic meditations] is if you can kind of layout the workings of that meditation but try to assign the workings of it to the spheres. I'm happy to help with this, the kabalah isn't necessarily a system in and of itself (*). It's more like a set of geometry that can be laid over other systems to tune them. Metaphor: Tuning an instrument. You can do it by ear, always, but if your making music all the time sometimes it's nice to have a quick system for getting everything calibrated.

    *though can be used that way--though once you create formula your basically no longer working in the kabalah, you've created judiasm, or christianity, or islam, or an alan moore story--a system of communication of kabalistic concepts and a way. Communication is transmutation of concept--alchemy related

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    Quote Originally Posted by noprophet View Post
    I consider Dion Fortune my personal mentor and shake my fists that the lords of karma and time should separate us as so.
    I've met with her on the inner planes, so I guess we're not so separated by space and time as we think we are.

    Quote Originally Posted by noprophet View Post
    I'll also have to check out Dolores as pathworkings are my weakest area. So much in fact that I let Netzach handle all my paths. I just point to the sphere I want in Hod and let Netzach do it's thing. This is no doubt my mentors fault. :P
    Wow! You are taking a walk on the wild side then! Rebel rebel!

    I follow Dolores's instruction to the letter.

    Quote Originally Posted by noprophet View Post
    While I'm not sure I'm being congruent here, I think the shamanistic path is much more netzach centric. You, already being quite adept in netzach (navigation through feel) are now introducing your hod complexes to working in these areas. I know these are abstract experiences,but I would appreciate you maybe walking through one a bit.
    I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but I think I have to disagree. I think the shamanic dimensions are way beyond the astral planes, which are described by Dion Fortune as the lower triangle that includes Netzach.

    I wrote an article called The War on the Astral Planes explaining my take on this. In that article, I used these two diagrams of Dion's which look to be hand drawn by her.





    In this second diagram, Dion has shown how the astral lower triangle is below the other higher dimensions in which the more ethical and supernal frequencies or vibrations are obtained and accessed.






    So I think the shaman automatically bypasses the lower astral planes .... I may be wrong, but I think this because I've been journeying as a shaman for a number of years, but never once found myself on the astral planes until I consciously started visiting the astral spheres on the Kabbalah.

    From this experience, and also from learning to work magically with more wizardy, magician types where I live (Cogs calls them Herman and the Hermeticists ), I also now believe that the so-called Illuminati (aka 'evil cabal') are stuck in the lower astral triangle because for them to go any higher takes spiritual training of which they are incapable of receiving because they don’t have the cognitive wherewithal to even seek it. For example, can you imagine Aleister Crowley sitting in Tipareth? If he ever did, he wouldn't have been Aleister Crowley.

    The other big difference between wizards/magicians like Crowley on one side and shamans on the other is that the magicians evoke spirits ...in other words, they try to bring them through the Veil, whereas shamans travel through the Veil in the opposite direction in order to visit the spirits in their own realms.

    The spirits that the shaman works with are way above being manipulated by magicians (or by anyone) and are entirely benevolent and only concerned with the spiritual evolution of the human being. The dimensions that the shamans visits to meet with these spirits are extremely loving and beautiful realms. I haven't yet started going up further than Tipareth on the Kabbalah, but I'm going to be interested to see if these higher Kabbalistic realms are similar to where the shaman journeys to.

    Quote Originally Posted by noprophet View Post
    I'm familiar with this, I can induce it now and then when my zodiac isn't being fussy by focusing on tiphareth'ic concepts. I think what may help [with your kabalistic meditations] is if you can kind of layout the workings of that meditation but try to assign the workings of it to the spheres. I'm happy to help with this, the kabalah isn't necessarily a system in and of itself (*). It's more like a set of geometry that can be laid over other systems to tune them. Metaphor: Tuning an instrument. You can do it by ear, always, but if your making music all the time sometimes it's nice to have a quick system for getting everything calibrated.
    I'm not sure what you mean by that ... but do please go on and explain further. I'm finding your thoughts very interesting and I'm learning a lot from you.

    Mosaic Hagia Sophia, one of the earliest Christian paintings

    mosaic_hagia_sophia_interior.jpg
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    notice tiphareth is blocking the pathway from hod while opening it to netzach. This is the reverse path of the lightning bolt.

    I've met with her on the inner planes, so I guess we're not so separated by space and time as we think we are.
    This I would like to hear more about.

    So I think the shaman automatically bypasses the lower astral planes .... I may be wrong, but I think this because I've been journeying as a shaman for a number of years, but never once found myself on the astral planes until I consciously started visiting the astral spheres on the Kabbalah.
    Have you recounted these journeys anywhere I can read them? Not having experience in this area I can't really apply any kabalist method to it without some symbols to read.

    From this experience, and also from learning to work magically with more wizardy, magician types where I live (Cogs calls them Herman and the Hermeticists ), I also now believe that the so-called Illuminati (aka 'evil cabal') are stuck in the lower astral triangle because for them to go any higher takes spiritual training of which they are incapable of receiving because they don’t have the cognitive wherewithal to even seek it. For example, can you imagine Aleister Crowley sitting in Tipareth? If he ever did, he wouldn't have been Aleister Crowley.
    This is most definitely where the wizards of the world come form. In every form--sometimes they don't even realize it themselves.
    The illuminatus will be better understood through meditation on geburah, but you might run into some nasty stuff there. Strength must be tempered with the wisdom birthed from understanding and anchored in knowledge birthed form love.

    As for Crowley, well... he's not stupid. (p. 10)
    Fortunately we have learnt to combine these ideas, not in the mutual toleration of subcontraries,but in the affirmation of contraries, that transcending of the laws of
    intellect which is madness in the ordinary man, genius in the Overman who hath
    arrived to strike off more fetters from our understanding. The savage who cannot
    conceive of the number six, the orthodox mathematician who cannot conceive of the
    fourth dimension, the philosopher who cannot conceive of the Absolute—all these are
    one; all must be impregnated with the Divine Essence of the Phallic Yod of
    Macroprosopus, and give birth to their idea. True (we may agree with Balzac), the
    Absolute recedes; we never grasp it; but in the travelling there is joy. Am I no better
    than a staphylococcus because my ideas still crowd in chains?
    He understood his kabalah very well but never stopped to question the validity of what was. I won't go to deeply here. This stuff is hidden in geburah which due to my particular energetic constitution, I avoid.

    The spirits that the shaman works with are way above being manipulated by magicians (or by anyone) and are entirely benevolent and only concerned with the spiritual evolution of the human being. The dimensions that the shamans visits to meet with these spirits are extremely loving and beautiful realms. I haven't yet started going up further than Tipareth on the Kabbalah, but I'm going to be interested to see if these higher Kabbalistic realms are similar to where the shaman journeys to.
    I'm interested in this as well. I'd like to know how your meditations go as you seem to be taking the utility of your shamanic systems (skill at trans-versing the abstract realms) and are now attracting some of the qabalistic things by introducing the concepts to your "established field". If your running into astral forms--and we produce a lot because we tend to transfer information through storytelling--try to get the astral form of the Baal Shem Tov. This is just theorizing on my part--but if what I think is happening, is happening, this could be useful.

    There's definitely more to talk about here but I have to get some of the more abstract things into some sort of communicable form or else I just start rambling. :P

    Oh and the reason baby jesus is such a prevalent symbol for tiphareth is because time, and therefore age, only apply to emotional and intellectual aspects. E.g. I have this feeling about that conceptual structure because in the past I experienced thisthat in relation to it.
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    Great post, noprophet. I like what you did to the Mosaic Hagia Sophia.

    The last meeting I had with Dion Fortune on the inner planes was when I inadvertently triggered the symbol for 'the occult police', as she calls them.

    I was reading her book on psychic protection and she said that if you ever get into trouble on the astral planes, you can always call upon 'the occult police' by triggering a symbol.

    I tried to visualise the symbol and meditated on it for a bit, so that I could imprint it in my memory. Unfortunately, by meditating on it, I pressed the button for 'the occult police' and suddenly I was in a room with her. I was so embarrassed for pressing a false alarm that I jumped back into my body, then instantly started mentally beating myself up for not using the opportunity to get to know her better. However, Dion does come over as a very certain type of English lady, brought up in strict girls' private schools. (You don't find these women anywhere else. Think Maggie Smith or Edith Evans). I went to one of those schools myself and was continually up before the Head Girl and the prefects in the Sixth Form for some misdemeanour or other. You had to stand on a desk while they all interrogated you. I always denied everything but it never washed with them. And so that's why I beat a hasty retreat ~ I was wary that I might be in for another of those Sixth Form drubbings for calling the occult police needlessly!!

    I think what's happening in this fascinating conversation (well, to me anyway!) is that we're straying into the wilder outer limits of what I think I know which comes from shamanic journeying and learning from the spirits there. Now I don't like to say to people: "I know this is true because my spirits told me it," because that's how religions start and I have no desire at all to start a new religion.

    On the contrary, what I'm about is putting people in tune with their own spirit guides, through the shamanic journeying technique, so that they get guidance from their own spirit guides. It is everyone's birthright to be able to do this, and so I'm nothing special. And while I have much respect for Bill Ryan, I think it's a huge mistake that he makes, in finding people that can talk to interdimensional beings and then interviewing them and making 'stars' out of them on the alternative media circuit. By making them celebrities, he's putting them at reserve from others, as if they're special or freaks of Nature. The truth is, we all have the television sets within us to be able to communicate with the spirits. We just need a tv mechanic (a shaman) to come and tune our tv sets, which are currently just fizzing with interference.

    So perhaps it would be a good idea for you to get an idea about what shamanism is and how it works, and then after that, we can see both together try to work out how what the shaman does and where the shaman goes in trance relates to the Kabbalah. I think it would be fascinating to do this.

    You could make a start by reading this post: What Is A Shaman and What Does A Shaman Do? which in itself, provides links to other articles I've written going into more detail about the specific roles and practices of the shaman.
    Last edited by Ishtar Babilu Dingir; May 6th, 2012 at 06:45 PM.
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    Forum Newbie noprophet's Avatar
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    More symbolism reference material:
    http://q-wak.blogspot.com/

    Some really interesting stuff on this site.

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    I would agree completely with that noprophet, including this thread. Interesting stuff all. Short on time and will be away for a few days, but looking forward to reading through again soon. thanks annieo11

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    Default It's official. Catholic Cardinal says "Adam and Eve is a myth"

    It's a pity though that Cardinal Pell has only the Judaeo-Christian bastardised version to comment upon though (The fuller Gnostic version is further up this thread) because it has caused him to come to a very reduced interpretation, but possibly the only interpretation that one could give when the story is taken out of context. However, it leads to an amusing exchange with Richard Dawkins at the end, who's based his atheism on debunking a literal interpretation of Genesis, when it was never meant to be taken literally anyway.

    Adam and Eve? That's just mythology, says Pell


    Adam-and-Eve-Garden.jpg

    AUSTRALIA'S Cardinal George Pell has described the biblical story of Adam and Eve as a sophisticated myth used to explain evil and suffering rather than a scientific truth.

    Cardinal Pell last night appeared on the ABC's Q&A program, where he was debating British evolutionary biologist and atheist Richard Dawkins.

    Cardinal Pell said humans "probably" evolved from Neanderthals but it was impossible to say exactly when there was a first human. "But we have to say if there are humans, there must have been a first one," he said.

    According to Genesis, God created Adam and Eve as the first man and woman.

    Asked by journalist Tony Jones if he believed in the existence of an actual Garden of Eden with an Adam and Eve, Cardinal Pell said it was not a matter of science but rather a beautiful mythological account.

    "It's a very sophisticated mythology to try to explain the evil and the suffering in the world," he said.

    "It's certainly not a scientific truth. And it's a religious story told for religious purposes."

    Cardinal Pell argued that the "great atheist movements" of Hitler and Stalin were the personification of social Darwinism.

    "It's the struggle for survival, the strong take what they can, and the weak give what they must and there's nothing to restrain them." he said. "And we've seen that in the two great atheist movements of the last century."

    Professor Dawkins, author of The God Delusion, rejected the notion as "ridiculous".

    He said Stalin was an atheist and Hitler was not, and they each perpetrated their acts for different reasons.

    Towards the end of the debate, the head of the Catholic Church in Australia appeared to lament his struggle to promote Christ.

    "My life would be much easier if I didn't have to go into bat for . . . Christian principles," he said.

    Cardinal Pell then mused that he sometimes wondered if he should regret his life's work, before asserting: "No, no."



    From The Australian
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  32. #17
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    Such an interesting conversation. Thankyou Ishtar, Zeno and Noprophet for all the wonderful information. I have been very interested in the Kabbalah and the connections with Judaism and Christianity and Eastern religions but it all seems rather complicated. My own journey from a background of Roman Catholicism prevented any experimentation or self learning. I looked inmany different churches until I heard an American professor speaking about Eastern religions and acceptance - that which I felt was missing from Western religions. It kick started my inward journeying.
    Last edited by Jaguarwoman; July 10th, 2012 at 08:41 AM.

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