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Thread: World history and bosnian pyramids 2011

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    Default World history and bosnian pyramids 2011

    "Dr.sci. Sam Semir Osmanagich, Foreign Member of the Russian Academy of Natural Sciences, Professor of Anthropology at the American University in Bosnia-Herzegovina
    www.samosmanagich.com
    Date: November 2011
    1. PREHISTORIC AND ANCIENT HUMAN SOCIETIES
    Almost everything they teach us about the ancient history is wrong: origin of men, civilizations and pyramids. Homo sapiens sapiens is not a result of the evolution and biologists will never find a “missing link”, because the intelligent man is product of genetic engineering. Sumerians are not the beginning of the civilized men, but rather beginning of another cycle of humanity. And finally, original pyramids, most superior and oldest, were made by advanced builders who knew energy, astronomy and construction better than we do.

    In order to understand the ancient monuments, we need to view them through three realms: physical, energy and spiritual. Our scientific instruments are simply not enough to explain the purpose of oldest pyramids, for example. Mainstream scientists, archaeologists, historians and anthropologists, are often main obstacle for scientific progress.

    Gap between physical and spiritual science is to be bridged if we want to get fully understanding of the past.

    Twelve hundred ton stone block in Baalbeck (Lebanon) needs explanation. Who was able to shape, move and install four times bigger blocks than our, 21st century, capabilities? Yonaguni megalithic monuments (Japan) do belong to the previous cycle of humanity. They are undeniable proof, on the bottom of the Pacific floor, 80 meters below the ocean level, that advanced culture lived in the area more than 12.000 years ago before huge quantities of ice melted and caused Pacific level to rise for 80 meters. Machu Picchu (Peru) tells the story of four distinctive civilizations and different construction styles, first civilization being the most advanced. At the same time, all the history books make up story of Inkas being the builders of “royal retreat” in the recent times. New dating of Peruvian, Mexican, Chinese and Egyptian pyramids will take us back much before recognized history and known rulers.

    Oldest Chinese and Egyptian pyramids are much superior to those made later, as unsuccessful replicas. Older are built from granite and sandstone blocks, more recent ones are much smaller built from bricks and mud. Traces of more advanced beings are everywhere around us. In the meantime, mainstream scientists try to fit those monuments into their time coordinates, falsifying the truth.

    Two hundred Cahokia pyramids show astronomical knowledge of the builders who moved several millions tons of construction materials and who knew the difference between cosmic and magnetic north. Mayan world is an example of the knowledge of Universe. Our Solar system circles Milky Way and that 26-thousand years cycle (“long count calendar”) affect all living life on our Planet. Anasazies, ancestors of Pueblo Indians, didn’t need alphabet or physical communication means to recognize danger in different dimensions coming from the depth of Universe.

    As long as they stay within the box, mainstream archaeologists will never be able to explain tooling and logistic needed to build stone heads on Easter Islands, shape granite blocks of Akapana pyramid complex in Bolivia or create chambers of Giza pyramids.
    Stone spheres of western Mexico, southern Costa Rica, Easter Island or twenty locations in remote Bosnia-Herzegovina, are obvious proof of understanding and manipulating of shapes and energy in the distant past.

    On top of all that, discovery of the Bosnian Valley of the Pyramids is telling us that we don’t know our Planet. We might go to the Moon (temporarily, until threaten), but we still need to explore our Mother Earth. More secrets wait to be uncovered and, with the ancient knowledge, help us reach our balance back.
    1. THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE BOSNIAN PYRAMID DISCOVERIES
    In April 2005 I first traveled to the town of Visoko, 20 miles northwest from Sarajevo, the capital of Bosnia-Herzegovina. My attention was caught by two regularly shaped hills, which I later named the Bosnian Pyramids of the Sun and Moon. For thousands of years locals have considered those hills to be natural phenomena because they were covered by soil and vegetation. However, when I first saw their triangular faces, obvious corners and orientation toward the cardinal points, I knew that they had to be constructed by a force other than nature.

    Since I had been investigating pyramids for decades I knew that the pyramids found in China, Mexico, Guatemala and El Salvador had the same type of soil and vegetation coverage.

    In 2005 work was begun on this project and construction companies and geologists were paid (out of my pocket) to do core drilling and geo-morphological analysis. We then announced to the world, at the press conference, that the first pyramids in Europe had been discovered.

    Shortly thereafter we established the non-profit Archaeological Park: Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun Foundationand since that time the pyramid investigations in Bosnia have become the world’s largest inter-disciplinary archaeological project. We have spent over 340.000 man-hours in archaeological excavation, sample testing and radiocarbon dating in the period from 2005 to 2011. We determined that the Bosnian Valley of the Pyramids consists of five pyramids discovered to date which I named: The Bosnian Pyramids of the Sun, Moon, Dragon, Mother Earth and Love. The site also includes a tumulus complex and a huge underground labyrinth.
    This discovery is historic and changes the knowledge of the early history of Europe for several reasons:
    1. These are the first pyramids discovered in Europe
    2. The site includes the largest pyramid structure in the world—The Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun with its height of over 220 meters is much higher than the Great Pyramid of Egypt (147 meters).
    3. The Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun has, according to the Bosnian Institute for Geodesy, the most precise orientation towards cosmic north with the error of 0 degrees, 0 minutes and 12 seconds.
    4. The Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun is completely covered by rectangular concrete blocks. The properties of the concrete, including extreme hardness (up to 133 MPs) and low water absorption (around 1%), are, according to the scientific institutions in Bosnia, Italy and France, far superior to modern concrete materials.
    5. The pyramids are covered by soil which is, according to the State Institute for Agro-pedology, approx. 12,000 years old. Radiocarbon dating from the paved terrace on Bosnian Pyramid of the Moon, performed by Institute of Physics of Silesian Institute of Technology from Gliwice (Poland) confirmed that terrace was built 10.350 years ago (+/- 50 years). These finding confirm that the Bosnian pyramids are also the oldest known pyramids on the planet.
    6. Beneath the Bosnian Valley of the Pyramids there is an extensive underground tunnel and chamber network which runs for a total of more than ten miles.
    7. Ceramic sculptures have been discovered in the underground labyrinth with a mass of up to 20,000 pounds which makes them the largest found so far from the ancient world.
    The list of the wonders in Bosnian archaeology does not end here. In the vicinity, we discovered the tallest tumulus in the World: 61 meter high. Its nearest competitor, Sillbury Hill in England is 60 meters high. The Bosnian tumulus consists of two-layer megalithic terraces, clay layers and artificial concrete layers.

    A team of physicists detected an energy beam coming through the top of the Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun. The radius of the beam is 4.5 meters with a frequency of 28 kHz. The beam is continuous and its strength grows as it moves up and away from the pyramid. This phenomenon contradicts the known laws of physic and technology. This is the first proof of non-herzian technology on the Planet. It seems that the pyramid-builders created a perpetual motion machine a long time ago and this “energy machine” is still working.

    In the underground labyrinth, in 2010, we discovered three chambers and a small blue lake. Energy screening shows that the ionization level is 43 times higher than the average concentration outside which makes the underground chambers into “healing rooms”.

    Further electromagnetic detection in 2011 confirmed that levels of negative radiation through the Hartman, Curry and Schneider grids are equal to zero in the tunnels. There was no technical radiation (from power lines and/or other technology) found in the tunnels and no cosmic radioactivity. Ceramic sculptures are positioned over the underground water flows and the negative energy is transformed into positive. All of these experiments point to the underground labyrinth as one of the most secure underground constructions in the world and this makes it an ideal place for the body’s rejuvenation and regeneration.

    Two hundred years of Egyptology has not produced a satisfactory answer to the question of what the real purpose was for the oldest and most superior pyramids.

    In only six years, our research in Bosnia has applied inter-disciplinary scientific methods, to look at this complex through the physical, energetic and spiritual dimensions. We have had pioneering results which affects the entire sphere of knowledge and Pyramid Science. Our history is changing with each new discovery.

    Perhaps by changing our beginnings or learning to better understand our beginnings we can also change our present and our future for the better.

    Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun, Visoko, Bosnia-Herzegovina
    Bosnian Valley of the Pyramids have been visited by500,000 tourists in the period of 2005-2011
    International Summer Camp for Volunteers attracts500 volunteers from 6 continents every year;photograph shows excavated paved terrace onBosnian Pyramid of the Moon
    Ceramic sculpture “K-2” in underground labyrinth weigh 18,000 lbs

    Energy beam coming from the Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun

    source
    http://piramidasunca.ba/eng/latest-n...mids-2011.html
    Last edited by Kathy; January 24th, 2012 at 12:49 PM.

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    Sorry to burst anyone's pseudo-bubble, but isn't Sam Osmanagich simply a former Houston contractor who returned home to Bosnia to dig up a mountain after becoming a self-proclaimed expert on the Maya and their alien origins? As far as that beam emitting from the mountain, I can Photo Shop something similar.
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    Cogs and Pigeon, I find myself in disagreement with both of you.

    Pigeon, your website looks like it's been set up deliberately and solely to debunk Sam Osmanagich and the Bosnian pyramids (and we all know what that's about) and then singularly fails to do either. It sounds as if it's been written by the Ha Ha! boy in the Simpsons. But even they have to admit that he is a doctor (albeit of sociology, but so what? It is a legitimate qualification. ) Then they sneer that he' s now calling himself a Professor before finally realising well. yes, actually ... he is on the faculty of a university and listed as a teacher there.

    In any case, you, me and the dog both know that only gifted amateurs get to discover anything worthwhile because the 'real archaeologists' only get funding for what the Club wants them to find... and Zahi Hawass has dominated the 'pyramid industry' until recently.

    Cogs, everyone accepts that if you went to the Bosnian pyramids, you wouldn't see that beam of light going up. These pictures were done as illustrations of what is there, and not meant to be taken literally. That this beam of energy exists has been ratified by a team of physicists:

    The radius of the beam is 4.5 meters with a frequency of 28 kHz. The beam is continuous and its strength grows as it moves up and away from the pyramid. This phenomenon contradicts the known laws of physic and technology. This is the first proof of non-herzian technology on the planet. It seems that the pyramid-builders created a perpetual motion machine a long time ago and this “energy machine” is still working. Sam Osmanagich
    I'd like to see some proper debunking of the Bosnian pyramids ~ not just snidery about Osmanagich ~ because then I'd be able to weigh in with my own research in response.... 'cos that's what I'm reduced to calling 'fun' these days ~ sad, I know.

    You may not be aware but there was some very interesting stuff that came out of the Bosnian pyramids dig last summer, which I've written about in this blog article: The Pyramid of the Sun and the Pyramid of the Moon.

    I think we need to keep an open mind about pyramids in general because we still have not discovered what the Egyptian pyramids were for, and that's because our archaeologists and scientists today don't understand about geomancy, earth currents, sacred geometry and shamanism.
    Last edited by Ishtar; March 23rd, 2012 at 07:01 PM.
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    Fair enough ... unfortunately, I read "The World of the Maya" by Semir Osmanagic about the same time that the initial Bosnian pyramid press releases hit the news. In it he makes a series of wild interpretations about the Maya backed up by no evidence whatsoever; therefore, I was totally turned off by the man from day one. However, that was then and this is now.

    Having been gone all day I only had a moment to peruse the excellent article you wrote, but I will do so in depth tomorrow. My primary question at this point is:

    The site location is near Sarajevo with the dating of the soil at 10,000bce. At that time the earth was in the throes of the Younger Dryas with severe LGM climatic conditions prevalent. Therefore, the area would have been snowbound for much of the year with glaciers nearby. As a result, any sort of population center would be virtually impossible to establish. Why and how would pyramids be built under such conditions?

    I remain skeptical.
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    No - not the soil. This dating comes from a radiocarbon date from a piece of fossilized wood from the Ravne tunnel, which supposedly proves that the Pyramid of the Moon (Pljesevica ) was built 10,000 years ago (not 10,000 years BC)
    Having been involved in RC dating before, I would like to see the actual report if anyone can provide it. Hopefully, it isn't in Polish or Bosnian. Of course, a piece of wood in a tunnel doesn't mean much, but some of the people on site are apparently saying that it was removed from an in-place scaffolding structure. So ... we have 12kya that went to 10kya, but I would still like to see the RC results to determine what dates actually were returned by the report along with the outliers. Most RC analysis gives a range of dates and the 'official' date becomes an average of them all unless, of course, outliers are excluded for some good reason.

    On a separate note I must apologise to Ishtar for my ad hominem attack directed to Semir Osmanagic due to his prior beliefs and writings. As mentioned to her in a subsequent PM, even a mentally challenged squirrel will sometimes find an acorn. Therefore, based on my knowing Ishtar for years and respecting her abilities, I will give her the benefit of the doubt as far as reading her article on the Bosnian subject and limit my responses to logic as opposed to emotion coupled with preconception. I have told her that should I be wrong about this, then I will eat my hat ... but in the same breath I requested condiments to go with it.

    Good news: after some centuries of detailed study, it’s been concluded that they were probably tombs.
    Pigeon, the actual use for the Egyptian pyramids is still up in the air with everyone (1) arguing about it, and (2) having a free opinion (i.e. worthless). The only thing I have discovered along with Digit (an engineer) is how they were easily built with existing technology and a few thousand workers. No levitating megaton blocks needed.

    As opposed to tombs for pharaohs who didn't know how long they were going to live or rule (which by the way was fairly short) I would prefer to look at the structures as communal projects with a purpose. We simply do not know what the purpose was and speculation is just that, speculation. Their location is interesting, but their dating is still suspect to me. I'm not talking 10,000bce, but I do believe Robert Schoch has a decent hypothesis regarding the Sphinx as being originally carved circa 6-7000bce and then re-carved at a later date. However, the topic of the Egyptian pyramids is off-thread ... Sam apparently believes that the Bosnian hills were crafted as pyramids similar to those found in Mexico. That particular belief is hard for me to swallow along with my hat.

    Still need to re-read Ishtar's article regarding the Bosnian pyramids. Been tied up with analysis of the US Senate passage of H.R. 3606 Friday.
    Last edited by Ishtar; March 25th, 2012 at 12:03 PM.
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    Guys, thank you for where you've actually provided points and material with which we can discuss the Bosnian pyramids on their own merits, and I will come back to it later...

    Thanks for your apology, Cogs.

    Pigeon, I thought you'd have picked up the hint from my last post you, but I notice you're still quoting from that same website which has obviously been set up solely to cast doubt on the Bosnian pyramids and relies mainly on ad hominem attacks on anyone who has had anything to do with the Bosnian dig. Please see our Rules. We don't allow ad hominem attacks on the Gate. You can attack the material as much as you like. You cannot make snide insinuations and unprovable and unsupported allegations about people, which is little more than gossip and supposition. Stick to discussing the facts of the matter. This is a warning. Please heed it. You won't get a second one.

    I'm now going to delete your references to that website.
    Last edited by Ishtar; March 24th, 2012 at 09:52 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ishtar View Post
    Pigeon, I thought you'd have picked up the hint from my last post you, but I notice you're still quoting from that same website which has obviously been set up solely to cast doubt on the Bosnian pyramids and relies mainly on ad hominem attacks on anyone who has had anything to do with the Bosnian dig. Please see our Rules. We don't allow ad hominem attacks on the Gate. You can attack the material as much as you like. You cannot make snide insinuations and unprovable and unsupported allegations about people, which is little more gossip and supposition. Stick to discussing the facts of the matter. This is a warning. Please heed it. You won't get a second one.

    I'm now going to delete your references to that website.
    Ad ad hominem attack is one using alleged personal flaws to attempt to invalidate an argument. The site that I linked to (which isn't in fact mine) uses facts and evidence to point out inconsistencies in the arguments that have been put forward to support the Bosnian Pyramids theory.

    I'm sure that a link from the Daily Grail couldn't possibly be considered in breach of the Gate Rules, so I'm including one here (see pages 6-9). This is an article on the Bosnian Pyramids by a well known geologist.
    Last edited by Ishtar; March 25th, 2012 at 12:00 PM.

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    Pigeon, we all know what an ad hominem attack is so your definition is not required. We also know that such attacks can be coordinated by providing links that accomplish the same which is what you might be doing with the Cambridge post since I can only access the abstract which assumes the reader has already decided that the Bosnian pyramids are pseudo-archaeology and tells me nothing about radiocarbon dating. I am laying down the following groundrules for this post:

    1. We will discuss dating of the site artifacts and features with reliable background scientific information provided.
    2. Site reports are encouraged to back up any data.
    3. News releases in favour or against the interpretation of the site are no longer allowed.

    With regard to your article written by Robert Schoch I view that as a news release versus a site report. Granted Robert was on site with Colette in 2006, but all of the dating has been done since then and he was only there 12 days which is not enough time to put together a reasonable site report or assessment.

    Personally, I believe that if anything is there it could be dated similarly to the proximate Neolithic site from 5000bce, or possibly from the Vinca Culture at 6000bce, but I would welcome any reliable dating from 8-12000bce to prove me wrong. Further, it is my understanding that the soil covering at least some of the pyramids was dated to 12,000 years old by the State Institute, but I will need to obtain the report on that before discussing it further.

    Pigeon, no more dancing around the ad hominem definition. While I remain skeptical, I believe everyone deserves a chance to be heard fairly without being subjected to character assassination such as Sam has. Let's see what science says.

    You are warned.
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    I'll stick with Robert Schoch's analysis of these so-called "pyramids" for now.

    http://www.robertschoch.com/bosniacontent.html

    I have looked at the exact same rocks and sites firsthand, and I believe that all of the so-called pyramid features are easily accountable for in terms of natural geological processes and features.

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    Robert Schoch was there a long time ago, Min, for just 12 days.

    Here is a picture of the Pyramid of the Sun, which, as you can see, is certainly shaped like a pyramid.

    bosnian-pyramids2.jpg


    Since Schoch's visit in 2006, much has been discovered and dated. I think he would tell a different story if he went there today. Schoch also seems very enamoured, in that article, in the firm statements of one Zahi Hawass that the Bosnian pyramids couldn't be proper pyramids, even though he had never so much set foot in that country, let alone examined these pyramids. Now, why would Mr Hawass be so vehement about something he's never ever seen, I wonder?

    Shoch didn't find any astronomical alignments, but not because they weren't there. It is because he is a geologist and not a geodesist. The Pyramid of the Sun has, according to the Bosnian Institute for Geodesy, the most precise orientation towards cosmic north with the error of 0 degrees, 0 minutes and 12 seconds.

    This is a prime example for why these kinds of studies require a multi-disclipinary approach.

    This paved terrace on the Pyramid of the Moon, which is obviously man-made (see below), has been radiocarbon dated by scientists from the Silesian Institute of Technology from Gliwice (Poland) and this found that it was built 10,350 years ago (+/- 50 years).

    volunteer-croatia-terrace.jpg

    The soil, though, has been dated to 12,000 years ago.

    This makes me think that the whole debate has become mired in ye olde traditional "it's an artifact!" "No, it's a geofact!" argument. This is a complete waste of time because the further back in prehistory you go, the more you see that our ancestors saw the world in a shamanic way. They could see spirit in everything and if they saw a mountain that looked like it should be a holy place, like a pyramid, they turned it into one. This is known as 'simulacra'.

    For example, Mount Rushmore in South Dakota used to be called the Six Grandfathers, because the faces of Elders could be made out naturally occurring in the rock face. It was part of a processional route for the Lakota Sioux which they took to make a pilgrimage to their sacred site of Harney Peak. The faces of the grandfathers were changed into those of the six US presidents in an act of desecration, in my view, on a par with the burning down of the Library of Alexandria.

    So the pyramids themselves could have been naturally occurring hills or mountains, which were enhanced and made use of as temples or for other purposes.

    Huge ceramic sculptures have been found underground, there, long before ceramics were supposed to have been invented.

    bosnia-ceramic-k2.jpg



    bosnian-ceramics-11.jpg


    Beneath the Bosnian Valley of the Pyramids there is an extensive underground tunnel and chamber network which runs for a total of more than ten miles.

    If you draw a line between the centres of the Pyramid of the Sun, the Pyramid of the Moon and the Pyramid of the Dragon, you come up with an equilaterial triangle and each pyramid has a channel of water coming from it that meets at the centre of the triangle. Now what are the odds of that occurring naturally?

    This is one of the water channels they found.

    bosnia-water-channel-curves.jpg

    Cogs, you brought up the very good point about the dating bringing the construction and habitation of the pyramids to around the time of the Younger Dryas, when all the environs for huge distances around would have been snowbound and under glaciation. I will come back to you on this ... but only to add at this point that our ancestors were living at Cheddar Gorge in the UK from 14,000 years ago onwards.

    An underground labyrinth was found under the Bosnian pyramids, in 2010, with three chambers and a small blue lake. Energy screening shows that the ionization level is 43 times higher than the average concentration outside which makes the underground chambers into “healing rooms”.

    Further electromagnetic detection in 2011 confirmed that levels of negative radiation through the Hartman, Curry and Schneider grids are equal to zero in the tunnels. There was no technical radiation (from power lines and/or other technology) found in the tunnels and no cosmic radioactivity.

    The aforementioned ceramic sculptures are positioned over the underground water flows and the negative energy is transformed into positive. All of these experiments point to the underground labyrinth as one of the most secure underground constructions in the world and this makes it an ideal place for the body’s rejuvenation and regeneration.

    In my considered opinion, having looked at lots of photographs, there's just too much that's been uncovered now for us to be able to write it off as a mere hoax. And so if people are still peddling the hoax point of view, you have to wonder about their own agenda. Why aren't they getting teams of scientists in there, themselves, to examine all these finds? Instead, they're reduced to picking away with unsubtantiated gossip and innuendo about those involved with the dig.

    What the Bosnian pyramids actually are, though, and what they were used for, will be argued about for generations to come ~ just as the Egyptian pyramids have been with equally elusive results.
    Last edited by Ishtar; March 25th, 2012 at 12:42 PM.
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    Cogs, you brought up the very good point about the dating bringing the construction and habitation of the pyramids to around the time of the Younger Dryas, when all the environs for huge distances around would have been snowbound and under glaciation. I will come back to you on this ... but only to add at this point that our ancestors were living at Cheddar Gorge in the UK from 14,000 years ago onwards.
    Not a great analogy, Ish, since Cheddar Gorge people were occupying caves 14,700 years ago and were apparently cannibals. See: http://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogsp...-cannibal.html

    As mentioned, I have only read of people living in squalid cave conditions in the Bosnian area during the time frame in question prior to the termination of the Younger Dryas. Not to say someone didn't begin creating pyramid-like temples back then , but I would like to read the radiocarbon and archaeologists' site reports before responding to the dates proffered and coming to my own conclusion. Until then, as you know, I suspect that the discoveries, if valid, can be attributed to Neolithic groups or Illyrians or possibly Romans, etc.

    Please ask Semir Osmanagic to provide raw data and I'll be a happy camper. Based on the site's controversial nature, I cannot be dissuaded from my skepticism without that information in hand. So far, I'm not eating my hat.
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    Ah! More emotive bias, appealing to current societal norms and prejudices.

    Cannibalism is a lifestyle choice, Cogs.

    I thought we were going to stick to discussing the material?

    I was answering the point about whether it was possible for man to live in northern Europe 14,000 years ago, and the answer is a resounding Yes. Just because you don't like their housekeeping or diet is neither here nor there.

    I would like to write to Sam to ask him to provide some data. But I can't show him this thread as my reason for doing so because you have all been so jolly beastly about him!

    Personally, I think it's just jealousy .. over his hat!!

    HN5zP0005424-02.jpg


    He has given the names of the scientific institutes where the testing was done, as follows:

    Silesian University of Technology (paved terrace)

    http://www.polsl.pl/en/Strony/0_welcome.aspx

    Federal Institute of Agropedology (soil)

    http://www.fbihvlada.gov.ba/english/...pedologija.php


    So he'd probably be a bit irritated if we hadn't even gone to those sources to see if we could find the reports ourselves first, especially as you're demanding it as if it's your right.

    Be nice.
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    Robert Schoch was there a long time ago, Min, for just 12 days.
    I would hope a geologist can identify a mountain in 1 day, Ish.... let alone 12.

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    I was answering the point about whether it was possible for man to live in northern Europe 14,000 years ago, and the answer is a resounding Yes. Just because you don't like their housekeeping or diet is neither here nor there.
    Dear Ish, my point was that people were living in no better than "squalid conditions" in that area of Europe at the time, not that they were missing entirely from the landscape. Living in caves and practising cannibalism is not conducive to teamwork or pyramid building since you wind up eating your co-workers for dinner and that's bad for morale.

    I would like to write to Sam to ask him to provide some data. But I can't show him this thread as my reason for doing so because you have all been so jolly beastly about him!
    Sam is probably used to 'beastly' people by now, so he would probably feel right at home here! Actually, I would just like someone to provide me with reliable, original reports (raw data) since the dates quoted make no sense to me. According to your post:

    1. The main pyramid was covered in soil about 12kya.
    2. The pyramid of the moon was dated to about 10.350kya

    First, why would the main pyramid by covered in soil 12kya after the structure was covered with an aggregate coating? Second, if the 'Pyramid of the Sun' and 'Pyramid of the Moon' formed some sort of triangle, why are they dated 1,650 years apart ... i.e. wouldn't the people be doing both simultaneously instead of 50 generations apart? Job #1 must be to ask, "How did they come up with the dates?" but nobody is providing a site report or lab radiocardbon readout. Seems to be reasonable items to provide given the controversial nature of the claims.

    I'd love to call the Silesian University of Technology, but (1) I don't speak Polish, (2) people at the Federal Institute of Agropedology probably speak Bosnian, and (3) Visoko is not my project, nor am I the one asking others to turn history on its head. Further, I wouldn't even know who to ask for if they spoke English, French or Spanish. An alternative and lovely option: Why not just email Sam to ask if he has copies of the reports that he would be willing to share with others?

    My concern with the lack of consistent dating also extends to the ceramics apparently found. The thought that ceramics were invented in that area in advance of, or simultaneous to the Orient would be extraordinary. Dating ancient fired ceramics is now feasible, but I haven't seen any effort in that regard. Seems to me that this is a critical must-do task, but nobody's backside is on fire to get it done.

    Personally, I think it's just jealousy .. over his hat!!
    You are probably correct. I have been wanting an Indiana Jones hat for some time now! And I won't even think about eating my brand new Indiana Jones hat until somebody can come up reports and data that would drive home the claims being made. Hey, Zahi Hawass wears the same style hat! Maybe I can get a discount now that he's out of favour with the Egyptian authorities?
    The pen is mightier than the sword, and considerably easier to write with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cognito View Post
    Dear Ish, my point was that people were living in no better than "squalid conditions" in that area of Europe at the time, not that they were missing entirely from the landscape. Living in caves and practising cannibalism is not conducive to teamwork or pyramid building since you wind up eating your co-workers for dinner and that's bad for morale.
    My dear Cognito, there are people living in absolutely squalid conditions today, and there are others living today that could build pyramids. My point? You can't judge a whole planetful of people on what one small group are doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cognito View Post
    Sam is probably used to 'beastly' people by now, so he would probably feel right at home here! Actually, I would just like someone to provide me with reliable, original reports (raw data) since the dates quoted make no sense to me. According to your post:

    1. The main pyramid was covered in soil about 12kya.
    2. The pyramid of the moon was dated to about 10.350kya
    No, that's not what I said. Do try to concentrate.

    1. The dating of the soil of all the pyramids is about 12kya, not just the Pyramid of the Sun.

    2. The paved terrace within the Pyramid of the Moon was dated to about 10 kya.

    This is said paved terrace, which is (was) a walkway into the Pyramid of the Moon.

    volunteer-croatia-terrace.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by Cognito View Post
    First, why would the main pyramid by covered in soil 12kya after the structure was covered with an aggregate coating?
    It wasn't. See above.

    Although covering a holy site with soil is not an unknown occurrence ~ for example, Gobekli Tepe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cognito View Post
    Second, if the 'Pyramid of the Sun' and 'Pyramid of the Moon' formed some sort of triangle, why are they dated 1,650 years apart ... i.e. wouldn't the people be doing both simultaneously instead of 50 generations apart?
    They're not. See above.

    You need to put on your listening ears.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cognito View Post
    Job #1 must be to ask, "How did they come up with the dates?" but nobody is providing a site report or lab radiocardbon readout. Seems to be reasonable items to provide given the controversial nature of the claims.
    Of course he can provide it. He just hasn't provided it personally to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cognito View Post
    I'd love to call the Silesian University of Technology, but (1) I don't speak Polish, (2) people at the Federal Institute of Agropedology probably speak Bosnian, and (3) Visoko is not my project, nor am I the one asking others to turn history on its head. Further, I wouldn't even know who to ask for if they spoke English, French or Spanish. An alternative and lovely option: Why not just email Sam to ask if he has copies of the reports that he would be willing to share with others?

    My concern with the lack of consistent dating also extends to the ceramics apparently found. The thought that ceramics were invented in that area in advance of, or simultaneous to the Orient would be extraordinary. Dating ancient fired ceramics is now feasible, but I haven't seen any effort in that regard. Seems to me that this is a critical must-do task, but nobody's backside is on fire to get it done.
    How do you know that? Oh I see... because you haven't seen it. Of course. Silly me. And if it's not even written in English, how can on Earth can it possibly be true? And why isn't it written in English? Surely one is not expected to speak Polish? And why have they not personally hand delivered this site report to you? Don't they know the Prince of Hapsburg is waiting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cognito View Post
    You are probably correct. I have been wanting an Indiana Jones hat for some time now! And I won't even think about eating my brand new Indiana Jones hat until somebody can come up reports and data that would drive home the claims being made. Hey, Zahi Hawass wears the same style hat! Maybe I can get a discount now that he's out of favour with the Egyptian authorities?
    Zahi Hawass has held back archaeology by at least 50 years and has dictated all the thinking around pyramidology. (Please see my article about how he held up publication of the so-called "Lascaux on the Nile" rock art.)

    There will be a lot more coming to light, now that he's gone.

    However, so long as we insist on continuing to think within the same cognitive box about the capabilities of our ancestors, we will never be able to explain the so-far unsolved mysteries of this planet, such as the tooling and logistics needed to build the stone heads on Easter Islands, or to shape the granite blocks of the Akapana pyramid complex in Bolivia or to construct the chambers within the Giza pyramids. Not to mention the fine engravings using obsidian tools by the ancient Egyptians which would be almost impossible to reproduce today.

    Also, so long as we continue to think within the same cognitive box about the capabilities of our ancestors, we lay ourselves wide open to claims that 'others must have come from outer space to build the pyramids' because our own people were too dumb to do it.

    Once you get in touch with the shamanic mind, you realise what a redundant concept this is. However, until then, the ET crowd will be able to run amuck around and dictate the thinking behind archaeological finds ~ and this plays nicely into the hands of a psy-ops campaign underpinning a proposed false flag invasion of the Anunnaki and other assorted ETs.

    I will write to Sam later ~ and just hope he doesn't see this thread which is a sad and shameful pot pourri of extremely reactionary and Luddite views from a locker room stinking of old jock straps.
    Last edited by Ishtar; March 26th, 2012 at 11:27 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
    I would hope a geologist can identify a mountain in 1 day, Ish.... let alone 12.
    Min, one day or 12, Schoch has been followed by many eminent scientists since then (who weren't on holiday with their new girlfriend at the time ) and who disagree with him.

    Dr Zahi Hawass, Secretary General of the Egyptian Supreme Council of Antiquities, had to give his opinion as well, committing a number of faux pas along the way. For example, when Dr Hawass was asked by Osmanagic to provide the name of an expert, he offered Dr Ali Barakat. A geologist, Dr Barakat meticulously investigated the structures for 42 days in 2006 and concludes that they are man-made. However, Dr Hawass pretended afterwards that he'd had nothing to do with the Bosnian saga!

    Dr Barakat is not alone in speaking in favour of the man-made nature of Visocica and other apparent pyramids nearby. Archaeologist Dr Nabil Mohamed Swelim, holder of three PhDs and the discoverer of four pyramids in Egypt, visited the structures in September 2007 and he, too, concludes that they are man-made "pyramid hills", as distinct from pyramids. A pyramid hill is a natural hill that is artificially enhanced to conform to the pyramid structure, whereas a pyramid is built from the bottom up.

    There is also a growing and impressive list of scientists—mostly from Egypt, Eastern Europe and Russia—who conclude that these structures are man-made. But their voices, specifically in the western media, have gone unheard.

    Indeed, the First International Scientific Conference, Bosnian Valley of the Pyramids (ICBP), held on 25–30 August 2008, received minimal exposure despite the participation of the likes of Dr Alaa Shaheen, archaeologist and Dean of the Faculty of Archaeology at Cairo University, Dr Hassan El-Saady, historian and Vice Dean of the Faculty of Arts at Alexandria University, Dr Mostafa El-Abbadi, founder of the modern library in Alexandria (the Bibliotheca Alexandrina) and Dr Mohamed Ibrahim Aly, Egyptologist and archaeologist in the Faculty of Arts at Ein-Shams University, Cairo. Instead, the few reports in the western media focused on the critics, who labelled the conference "pseudo-scientific". What equally was not reported is that invitations from Dr Swelim to the critics to attend were ignored by those critics.


    This whole article
    by Philip Coppens, author of The New Pyramid Age, is quite enlightening, but I'm just pulling out a few highlights here:

    T
    he most visited excavation site, about one-third of the way up the hill, has revealed the presence of large blocks of conglomerate between 50 and 100 centimetres below the surface. Similar excavations have been conducted on the other sides of the pyramid; in each case, a layer of this conglomerate has been found just below the surface. It has been suggested that the entire hill once had a six-metre-thick covering of conglomerate.

    Just next to the main "tourist" site, however, the surface layer, comprising approximately 40–80 cm of sand, has been removed over a much bigger area to reveal a uniform, cement-like (conglomerate) coating. This coating leaves little doubt in the eyes of the visitor that it is indeed man-made. However, none of the sceptics has ever referred to this section; instead, they've focused on the much smaller and less interesting site nearby.

    As mentioned, Egyptian geologist Dr Ali Barakat has concluded that these blocks are man-made. Moreover, laboratory analysis results from the Civil Engineering Institute of Tuzla, made public by geophysicist Dr Enes Ramovic in September 2006, have determined that the cement comprising these blocks had been poured in situ. In addition, a biology expert has maintained that the experiment of planting trees on the hill 40 years ago should be deemed a failure, as the tree roots have not been able to penetrate the conglomerate (cement) layer. He argued that this suggests the layer is man-made, as tree roots normally have no problem penetrating natural rock.

    Furthermore, with renewed interest in Visocica, the ancient Bosnian city on its summit has recently been excavated. Here, it is clear that the layer of conglomerate (cement) found lower down the slope goes all the way to the top. Inside the structure, holes had been dug so that posts could be erected, either for roofs or for a mezzanine type of floor.

    The western side of the pyramid was partially excavated by the Pyramid Foundation in 2006. Here, too, the team found large rectangular slabs just under the surface, as well as clearly man-made stone structures on the slope of the plateau. The overall impression is of a paved access plateau to the pyramid—a plateau which measures no less than 420 metres in length.
    Work of a different nature on Visocica has been carried out by Russian scientist Oleg Khavroshkin, of the Schmidt Institute of Earth Physics at the Russian Academy of Sciences in Moscow. He performed a geophysical analysis between 20 July and 4 August 2007. These scans suggested "...the existence of hollow cavities below the ground. These inhomogeneities were registered at Vratnice, Pljesivica [Pyramid of the Moon] and the tunnels. In the vicinity of the well shaft at the Pyramid of the Moon, clusters of frequencies were observed, resulting probably from such nonhomogenous cavities." In short, potential chambers.


    Seems that Sam's father agrees with me, that we're looking at geofacts turned into artifacts.

    Dr Muris Osmanagic, one of Bosnia's most eminent mining engineers and professors (as well as the father of Sam Osmanagic), has concluded in his book, About the Cultural Layer of the Bosnian Pyramid Builders, that "...the only possible and rational solution is that the great Pyramid of the Sun was a natural hill (composed of clay marl), modified into a pyramid. In such a case, the coating layer of concrete blocks make[s] up 6.28 per cent of the body of the pyramid, composed of clay marl, or 2,6 mln m3 [2.6 million cubic metres], [on a par with] the volume of the Khufu Pyramid stone blocks. This was already within the realm of the possible for this then highly developed civilisation."


    And Cogs, on the subject of hat-eating! It could be worse!


    Finally, a bit of theatre was produced when historian Dubravko Lovrenovic, who heads the Bosnia– Herzegovina Commission for the Preservation of National Monuments, stated on federal public television that he would burn himself alive on top of Visocica if it turned out to be a pyramid! Later, he denied he'd ever said this, but with the help of Gavrilo Grahovac, the Federal Minister of Culture and Sports, he stopped all excavation on the Pyramid of the Sun—perhaps to make sure he didn't have to commit suicide in such a public manner?







    Last edited by Ishtar; March 26th, 2012 at 12:22 PM.
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    Dear Ish, we appear to have the Irresistible Force (you) meeting the Immovable Object (me).

    All I am saying is this: If Sam would like people to review his site seriously, then provide some reasonable data in the form of Site and RC reports. There must be many archaeologists who would be willing to travel to Bosnia for reasonable pay to accomplish that if he has none. Until then, I cannot make head nor tails out of what is being presented since, as they say in court, everything is 'hearsay'. Given the recent excavations at Gobekli Tepe with Level III dating from 11,000bce anything is possible. However, I can access published Site Reports from that location.

    At the risk of sounding redundantly pig headed , the above reports are necessary to take into consideration the claims being made since basic data is the foundation upon which archaeological conclusions are drawn. You know me well enough to understand that I won't give much credence to someone's opinion or a news release - whether it be Sam Osmanagic, his father, Zahi Hawass, or God. I would rather make up my own mind.

    ... who weren't on holiday with their new girlfriend at the time
    You mean the good doctor was confusing geology with physiology by investigating the wrong mountains and found them to be natural formations? Hey, it could happen!
    The pen is mightier than the sword, and considerably easier to write with.

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    OK, just heard back from Sam. He has sent me three reports:

    1. The Age of the Bosnian Pyramid of the Moon

    2. From Pebbles in the Underground Tunnel of Ravne to Concrete Blocks on the Pyramid of the Sun

    3. Radiocarbon dating of the Pyramid of the Moon Gliwice April 2011


    If anyone would like to see any of these, please let me know here, and I'll email them to you.

    I'll put the first one here, because it's not so long. But I can't post the photos and there are about nine of them, including a graph:

    THE PAVED TERRACE ON THE BOSNIAN PYRAMID OF THE MOON
    IS FOUND TO BE OVER 10,000 YEARS OLD!


    The results of carbon-dating of a sample taken from the paved terrace of the Bosnian Pyramid of the Moon have been returned to the “Archeological Park of the Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun” Foundation. The age of the sample has been determined to be 10,350 years (+/- 50 years). This means that the Bosnian Pyramids are significantly older than the officially pronounced age of the Egyptian pyramids (4,500 years), as well as those of China, Peru, or Mexico (estimated as roughly 2,000-3,000 years old).

    The Foundation began work on the western, triangular side of the Bosnian Pyramid of the Moon at Visoko (about 20 miles north of Sarajevo, in Bosnia-Herzegovina) in July 2006. The height of this pyramid is 190 meters, making it taller than the Cheops Pyramid of 147 meters. At a point roughly halfway to the top of this pyramid a paved terrace was discovered which consisted of carefully trimmed paving of sandstone.

    This material has been used throughout many generations as a natural building and architectural material and there is an abundance of it in the region. These sandstone paving stones had been smoothed on all six sides, and they had been carefully placed along the external surface of the pyramid. Between them there is a binding cement-like material.

    During the season of 2010, under the supervision of archeologists and geologists, volunteers expanded this location known as the “archeological trench No. 20”. Even before this, Professor Muhamed Pašić of the Institute of Materials at the University of Zenica had established that the upper layer of the sandstone blocks had been cemented to its base. Between the two layers there was discovered a brown material which had most probably found its way there on the wind during the time of the construction of the paved terrace. Its color was indicative of what might possibly be organic material.

    The Italian archeologist, Ricardo Bret, using standard archeological methods, took samples in September 2010. These samples were sent to the Institute of Physics of Silesian University of Technology at Gliwice in Poland. The head of the Radiocarbon Laboratory there, physics professor Anna Pazdur, supervised the analysis which was carried out and which established that one of the two samples taken was, indeed, made of organic material.

    Using the C14 radio-carbon dating method, within several weeks the results were sent to the Foundation in Sarajevo. Their findings were that this sample was of an age of 10,350 years (+/- 50 years).

    This means that the process of the cementing of the upper layer onto the base layer was carried out at that time. We can therefore conclude from this that the Bosnian Pyramid of the Moon was made nearly ten and a half thousand years ago!

    This makes it considerably older than the cultures of Sumeria, Babylon, Egypt or ancient India. This is the latest confirmation of extremely interesting data in connection with the age of the Bosnian Pyramids.
    Last edited by Ishtar; March 26th, 2012 at 08:46 PM.
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    if you email them to me I can put them on my server so everyone can download them

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    OK, thanks Space, I'll do that now.
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